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Server Time: 3/16/2010 7:58:21 AM PACIFIC |
 Pair on the board, iceman5, 20. Oct 2003 07:28 | ||
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| Scenario: In an unraised pot with 2 players, the flop comes JJ4. First player bets and the other one raises. Would you agree that its not likely the the raiser has a J? Wouldnt he wait until the turn to raise? On the other hand I dont think hes raising to get a free card either? What do you think? | ||
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| Re: Pair on the board, ReMMy, 20. Oct 2003 07:50 | ||
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| a 4 is more likely but it depends on the opponent, is he smart enough to raise w/ a j because he knows you won't believe him? Still not usually a good play since you may drive out a bluffer? Also was their a possible flush draw on board? Lastly he might have a pocket pair higher than 4's, if I had a 4 I would probably reraise, and then lead out again next round to see what happens if he only calls my reraise. | ||
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| Re: Pair on the board, 4 POKER, 20. Oct 2003 08:12 | ||
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| Hi, Although 'if' the player did have a jack, he may usually wait until the turn to make his raise.....there still is the 'possibility' that he does indeed hold a Jack and would still chose to raise him on the flop. Some things to consider would be --- what type of player is doing the betting?....Is he the type of player that would lead at the flop with a 4 in his hand, and 'would' he be the type of player to call the raise? If he did have a 4 and got raised....would he 'also' be inclined to think that the raisor had a 4 as well? Would that raise make him more inclined to keep calling? And, would the bettor (the player who's leading at the flop) be more inclined to throw his hand away on the turn if he bets his hand again, but then gets raised? Also.....the bettor doesn't have to have anything, but does the raisor 'think' that he will call a raise with just overcards, or, if he does put the bettor on having a 4, does he 'think' that the bettor will be inclined to play back, and carry through with calling? There will be times when a player who's holding such a strong hand (as in your scenerio question), that will definitely make that raise on the flop; even in a heads up situation with no raises made pre-flop. True....if you raise it in that spot and you 'do' hold 3 J's, it could cause the bettor to fold his hand right there, but if you know your opponent well enough, and you know that he'll call the raise if he has a 4 (or perhaps just an overcard like an Ace)....then the raise can be an 'even more' deceptive play; especially if the bettor thinks the raisor is making a "move" on the flop, ie: raising with a 4 or overcards, or *nothing*! That may also cause the bettor to raise him back on the flop, and continue to lead at it *again*, on the turn! ..... And what if the player who bets the flop is on the maniacal side, or just someone who is downright overly aggresive and *only* plays his own hands?....do you think he would call a raise after firing in a bet?.....it's a very strong possibility that he would, and it's possible that he'll raise him *back*! It's also possible that he'll shut down on the turn if he bets the flop- only gets 'called', and then he's raised on the turn. Sometimes....that raise on the turn wakens the bettor up....whereas, if the raise is made on the flop....it doesn't! There's alot of thought process that goes into the players mind when he makes decisions to play his hands in a way that (most) players wouldn't play it. And although putting in the raise on the turn 'seems' like it would allow you to make the most $$ out of the situation....it's not always the case. Playing your hand in a straightfoward type of way in situations where you wouldn't 'think' it would be made....can be quite confusing to the player who is doing the betting (not the raisor), so it (sometimes) will cause the bettor to overplay his own hands, mis-read his opponent throughout the entire hand, and pay off the raisor, when he shouldn't. Should a player always chose to make that raise right on the flop if he did indeed hold a Jack? No, but there will be times when he can, and actually stand the chance to extract even more bets. That comes into factor when you have a really good read over your opponents tendencies (as stated above), and he is also underestimating... you. So to answer your question....No! I would not agree to say that the raisor couldn't have a Jack in his hand; and I don't even want to say that most of the times if he raised it on the flop, that he most likely doesn't have a Jack either, because that (imo) can cause a person to only think in one direction, and there are many, many situational plays that are used with alot of thought process (and need to be considered) when playing any hand in a certain manner. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Pair on the board, gary ford, 21. Oct 2003 12:44 | ||
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| on 20. Oct 2003 07:28 iceman5 wrote: > Scenario: In an unraised pot with 2 players, the flop comes JJ4. First player > bets and the other one raises. Would you agree that its not likely the the > raiser has a J? Wouldnt he wait until the turn to raise? On the other hand I > dont think hes raising to get a free card either? What do you think? Either a 4 or a small pair | ||
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