UPF - Feedback on this tourney replay?

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Feedback on this tourney replay?, mj, 19. Oct 2003 21:25
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http://teamfu.freeshell.org/replayer/index.html?10-06-03ac.txt The link above is to one of my recent tournaments on Party. It's the first poker replay that I've commented on, so I was wondering if anyone wouldn't mind watching the replay and just letting me know if my comments are pretty on-track or not quite. As you can tell if you see the replayer, I'm more of a programmer than poker player. So please, let me know what you thought of the play and replayer too for that matter. Thanks. -- MJ http://teamfu.freeshell.org Party Poker Playing Guide
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Re: Feedback on this tourney replay?, modestmice, 19. Oct 2003 21:35
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on 19. Oct 2003 21:25 mj wrote: > http://teamfu.freeshell.org/replayer/index.html?10-06-03ac.txt > > The link above is to one of my recent tournaments on Party. It's the first > poker replay that I've commented on, so I was wondering if anyone wouldn't mind > watching the replay and just letting me know if my comments are pretty on-track > or not quite. As you can tell if you see the replayer, I'm more of a programmer > than poker player. > > So please, let me know what you thought of the play and replayer too for that > matter. Thanks. > -- > MJ > http://teamfu.freeshell.org > Party Poker Playing Guide thats rad! ------------------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard
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Re: Feedback on this tourney replay?, Schuster, 19. Oct 2003 22:57
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Commenting as I go... 1) The hand where Norman holds J7 of clubs under the gun vs the set of 5's. He actually has a double belly buster, not just a gutshot, which puts him better than 50% to make a hand by the river. Also I believe he just called on the river to get some overcalls. If he raises, the only one who is likely to call is the original bettor or someone he is splitting the pot with. If he just calls, more might call with a lessor hand. Raising vs calling is a tossup. 2) The hand where you held J2o in the big blind and called the raise. I wouldn't call a raise in the spot. Trips or two pair is a long shot, and it's minus EV in a cash game, let alone a tournament. After you flop top pair, you played it somewhat weak-tight. How do you know a jack wasn't the best hand? You seem a little too fearful of overpairs. I would have bet out and see where I stood. Also, you stated that you had "7 out (2 jacks and 3 twos)" which is clearly incorrect. You need pot odds of about 8.5 to 1, not the number you stated. 3) The hand where you limp with 88 and then get raised by riverualot. First, I would have raised before the flop. You're likely to get heads up or shorthanded at this stage of the tournament and you can take control of the pot. And I wouldn't call the turn bet a semi-bluff, I'd call it protecting the best hand. You've got to be ahead here. Nice play after the flop. 4) On the hand where Sally bluffed her flush draw through the river and norman passively called with his top pair, 3 kicker. I disagree that it was poor play by sally. I might have read my opponent for a draw and bet the river, if I had not known him. It's her only chance to win the pot of course, and Norman had suggested no strength at all during the hand. The river bluff isn't too bad. In general, you are putting some blanket statements on people with a very small sample. After 10 hands, you cannot call someone tight just because they haven't played much. They might have just been dealt trash hands. 5) I very much disagree with completing the small blind with 83o. It's total trash, and the odds are not there to try to flop anything in a ring game, let alone in a tournament where your chips are precious. Even if you think that "outplaying" your opponents would add enough EV to make it profitable (which most players overestimate), you don't make a play at the pot any time during the hand when no one suggests any strength. Save your chips. 6) I'm not sure I like the fold of A2s when it gets down to 5, although I can see your reasons for it. The lack of a small blind is probably enough to push the decision to folding, but I disagree with your assesment of the big blinds play. Just because he is chip leader doesn't mean he will call and bet out no matter what. 7) When you hold 44 in the small blind and then the puck makes a position bet, you question whether you should have raised. I believe this is an easy fold, given the tendencies of your opponents and the weakness of your holding. You still have two players left to act behind you, and there's a flush draw and 3 to a straight. Your opponents like to chase, and if they have any sort of draw, they have overcards too, which means you are maybe a small favorite if not a small dog to win, depending on their exact holding. If you get two callers, you're in trouble, and chips are precious. Let it go. 8) I'm not sure I like calling the raise with K5s. The most likely flop that you would like to see is a flush draw, and drawing hands are no good late in the tournament. It's a pretty hand, and I would probably play it heads up against a raiser, but there was a raise and a cold call. Get away from it and save your chips. Don't be "hoping" for a miracle. 9) Not really related to the play of hands, but how can you figure 32o to be better than 32s? That claim is just about ridiculous. And as far as your bit with the RGP guy, it depends. 32o performs worst heads up, but 72o performs worst in a big family pot. 10) When you reraise with your pocket 33, what do you expect him to do with your "honesty test"? Fold if his hand is no good? By raising him back, you've decided that you will commit your chips to this pot, which isn't too bad, but you should do it in a way that gives you the best chance of survival. Since you only have 190 left, he's not going to fold for a flop bet as the chip leader, if he doesn't put you all in before the flop. I'd flat call and then raise his inevitable flop bet. It's not much more, but it gives him a better chance of folding overcards, which means you have a slightly better chance of survival. In the end, which way you played it didn't have that big of an impact since the ends were probably the same, but putting the chip leader to the "honesty test" isn't going to work when you only have 1 bet left. 11) The hand where you open raise from the puck with K6s. No flop bet? Bad poker in my opinion. You have a gutshot and a king overcard, plus a backdoor flush draw against a ragged board. You're risking 200 to win 1200, and you're against nonaggresive noncreative opponents. They aren't going to checkraise with nothing. You have 7 probable outs, and you can probably add another on there for the backdoor draw. Would you have bet an open ended straight draw in that spot? You need to fire at this pot in this spot. You ended up giving the pot to the ace high when he couldn't stand any heat. 12) The hand where you have K7o in the big blind vs Norman and see a 555 flop. First off, you shouldn't even consider raising in this spot. I'm not sure if you did or just mentioned why you didn't, but you shouldn't. Your hand is weak and you're out of position. Then, you don't take a stab at it on the flop because you will be called if you are behind, but you give him a free card and then bet? Do you think he'll fold a pocket pair or an ace now? You need to bet the flop here because your king is fairly likely to be good. If he calls, then at least you have an idea where you stand. You're risking twice as much on the turn and giving him a free card to catch up. 13) When you hold AQo in the big blind... Norman definately isn't going to fold, and the small blind shouldn't fold either. You're not going to thin the field with a raise, and the "calling station" has position on you. With chips in such short supply, you really should just check and see the flop here. You were lucky to catch well after you raised. How would you have played if the flop was rags? It's tough out of position against Norman. 14) I'm not sure I like raising out of the small blind with Q3o. Your Q3o is less than even money against a random hand, and that's what the BB has. Calling isn't bad to see a flop at 3 to 1 odds against someone who doesn't figure to raise you after you've called, but I do not like the raise here. You doubled him up on a hand where you had trash. He's basically risking his last 400 chips to win 1000. It doesn't take a math guru to notice that he should play with anything in this spot, and his "anything" is favored to win against what you have. 15) Putting lucky on AJ or AQ when you hold the AT on the puck is not so great. Any decent player would not play top pair good kicker so softly when down to three. He should have come out firing with those hands, and to think he wouldn't is a bad assumption. 16) "Can't bluff a guy who is all-in and T4 isn't a hand that likes to win, so I'd rather sit on the sidelines..." I'd play here. You're getting big odds on a call and your opponent is pretty likely to check it down. These are the times when you need to gamble to eliminate someone. Even with your poor hand, you are getting the best of it. 17) Nice play with the aces on the end. You were fortunate that he was willing to put it all in before the flop, I guess he's seen one too many WPT episodes. General comments- You have a slight bug with the limits. Whatever it states as the blinds are actually the limits. For example, when it says the blinds are 200/400, the blinds are actually 100/200 and the limits are 200/400. The hands run slowly and it's tough to watch them the whole way. It would be nice if they went faster. I can't believe I watched that whole thing. It probably took me longer to watch than it did for you to play it. Man do I love this game. Lee
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Re: Feedback on this tourney replay?, modestmice, 20. Oct 2003 04:37
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on 19. Oct 2003 22:57 Schuster wrote: > Commenting as I go... > > 1) The hand where Norman holds J7 of clubs under the gun vs the set of 5's. He > actually has a double belly buster, not just a gutshot, which puts him better than > 50% to make a hand by the river. Also I believe he just called on the river to get > some overcalls. If he raises, the only one who is likely to call is the original > bettor or someone he is splitting the pot with. If he just calls, more might call > with a lessor hand. Raising vs calling is a tossup. > > 2) The hand where you held J2o in the big blind and called the raise. I wouldn't > call a raise in the spot. Trips or two pair is a long shot, and it's minus EV in a > cash game, let alone a tournament. After you flop top pair, you played it somewhat > weak-tight. How do you know a jack wasn't the best hand? You seem a little too > fearful of overpairs. I would have bet out and see where I stood. Also, you stated > that you had "7 out (2 jacks and 3 twos)" which is clearly incorrect. You need pot > odds of about 8.5 to 1, not the number you stated. > > 3) The hand where you limp with 88 and then get raised by riverualot. First, I > would have raised before the flop. You're likely to get heads up or shorthanded at > this stage of the tournament and you can take control of the pot. And I wouldn't > call the turn bet a semi-bluff, I'd call it protecting the best hand. You've got to > be ahead here. Nice play after the flop. > > 4) On the hand where Sally bluffed her flush draw through the river and norman > passively called with his top pair, 3 kicker. I disagree that it was poor play by > sally. I might have read my opponent for a draw and bet the river, if I had not > known him. It's her only chance to win the pot of course, and Norman had suggested > no strength at all during the hand. The river bluff isn't too bad. In general, you > are putting some blanket statements on people with a very small sample. After 10 > hands, you cannot call someone tight just because they haven't played much. They > might have just been dealt trash hands. > > 5) I very much disagree with completing the small blind with 83o. It's total trash, > and the odds are not there to try to flop anything in a ring game, let alone in a > tournament where your chips are precious. Even if you think that "outplaying" your > opponents would add enough EV to make it profitable (which most players > overestimate), you don't make a play at the pot any time during the hand when no one > suggests any strength. Save your chips. > > 6) I'm not sure I like the fold of A2s when it gets down to 5, although I can see > your reasons for it. The lack of a small blind is probably enough to push the > decision to folding, but I disagree with your assesment of the big blinds play. Just > because he is chip leader doesn't mean he will call and bet out no matter what. > > 7) When you hold 44 in the small blind and then the puck makes a position bet, you > question whether you should have raised. I believe this is an easy fold, given the > tendencies of your opponents and the weakness of your holding. You still have two > players left to act behind you, and there's a flush draw and 3 to a straight. Your > opponents like to chase, and if they have any sort of draw, they have overcards too, > which means you are maybe a small favorite if not a small dog to win, depending on > their exact holding. If you get two callers, you're in trouble, and chips are > precious. Let it go. > > 8) I'm not sure I like calling the raise with K5s. The most likely flop that you > would like to see is a flush draw, and drawing hands are no good late in the > tournament. It's a pretty hand, and I would probably play it heads up against a > raiser, but there was a raise and a cold call. Get away from it and save your chips. > Don't be "hoping" for a miracle. > > 9) Not really related to the play of hands, but how can you figure 32o to be better > than 32s? That claim is just about ridiculous. And as far as your bit with the RGP > guy, it depends. 32o performs worst heads up, but 72o performs worst in a big family > pot. > > 10) When you reraise with your pocket 33, what do you expect him to do with your > "honesty test"? Fold if his hand is no good? By raising him back, you've decided > that you will commit your chips to this pot, which isn't too bad, but you should do > it in a way that gives you the best chance of survival. Since you only have 190 > left, he's not going to fold for a flop bet as the chip leader, if he doesn't put you > all in before the flop. I'd flat call and then raise his inevitable flop bet. It's > not much more, but it gives him a better chance of folding overcards, which means you > have a slightly better chance of survival. In the end, which way you played it > didn't have that big of an impact since the ends were probably the same, but putting > the chip leader to the "honesty test" isn't going to work when you only have 1 bet > left. > > 11) The hand where you open raise from the puck with K6s. No flop bet? Bad poker > in my opinion. You have a gutshot and a king overcard, plus a backdoor flush draw > against a ragged board. You're risking 200 to win 1200, and you're against > nonaggresive noncreative opponents. They aren't going to checkraise with nothing. > You have 7 probable outs, and you can probably add another on there for the backdoor > draw. Would you have bet an open ended straight draw in that spot? You need to fire > at this pot in this spot. You ended up giving the pot to the ace high when he > couldn't stand any heat. > > 12) The hand where you have K7o in the big blind vs Norman and see a 555 flop. > First off, you shouldn't even consider raising in this spot. I'm not sure if you did > or just mentioned why you didn't, but you shouldn't. Your hand is weak and you're > out of position. Then, you don't take a stab at it on the flop because you will be > called if you are behind, but you give him a free card and then bet? Do you think > he'll fold a pocket pair or an ace now? You need to bet the flop here because your > king is fairly likely to be good. If he calls, then at least you have an idea where > you stand. You're risking twice as much on the turn and giving him a free card to > catch up. > > 13) When you hold AQo in the big blind... Norman definately isn't going to fold, > and the small blind shouldn't fold either. You're not going to thin the field with a > raise, and the "calling station" has position on you. With chips in such short > supply, you really should just check and see the flop here. You were lucky to catch > well after you raised. How would you have played if the flop was rags? It's tough > out of position against Norman. > > 14) I'm not sure I like raising out of the small blind with Q3o. Your Q3o is less > than even money against a random hand, and that's what the BB has. Calling isn't bad > to see a flop at 3 to 1 odds against someone who doesn't figure to raise you after > you've called, but I do not like the raise here. You doubled him up on a hand where > you had trash. He's basically risking his last 400 chips to win 1000. It doesn't > take a math guru to notice that he should play with anything in this spot, and his > "anything" is favored to win against what you have. > > 15) Putting lucky on AJ or AQ when you hold the AT on the puck is not so great. Any > decent player would not play top pair good kicker so softly when down to three. He > should have come out firing with those hands, and to think he wouldn't is a bad > assumption. > > 16) "Can't bluff a guy who is all-in and T4 isn't a hand that likes to win, so I'd > rather sit on the sidelines..." I'd play here. You're getting big odds on a call > and your opponent is pretty likely to check it down. These are the times when you > need to gamble to eliminate someone. Even with your poor hand, you are getting the > best of it. > > 17) Nice play with the aces on the end. You were fortunate that he was willing to > put it all in before the flop, I guess he's seen one too many WPT episodes. > > General comments- > > You have a slight bug with the limits. Whatever it states as the blinds are > actually the limits. For example, when it says the blinds are 200/400, the blinds > are actually 100/200 and the limits are 200/400. > > The hands run slowly and it's tough to watch them the whole way. It would be nice > if they went faster. > > I can't believe I watched that whole thing. It probably took me longer to watch > than it did for you to play it. Man do I love this game. > > Lee godman lee, your into it! speaking of age, gary is right, age is relative. i still cant believe your only 21.
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Re: Feedback on this tourney replay?, mj, 20. Oct 2003 23:45
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Awesome. Thanks a ton for the feedback. About to head to sleep, but I'll read through all your notes in the morning, I really appreciate it. -- MJ
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Re: Feedback on this tourney replay?, Hatchthunder, 21. Oct 2003 07:06
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I have not watched the entire tourney so I cannot comment on the play except for the bad call in the small blind in the first hand. If you did not like your weak kicker with your king you should have not even called the blind. I think the replayer is great and so far your comments have been very perceptive and interesting. What are you going to use it for? Are there going to be more of them. I would love to see more.
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