United Poker Forum

Server Time: 3/12/2010 8:23:42 AM PACIFIC  
Hand Analyses, hokie95, 19. Oct 2003 14:40
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Ok, played live on Friday night. 3-6 HE. Need some thoughts on 2 hands, although I think I already know the answer:

Hand 1:

I am 2 off the BB, dealt QQ. The player 4 to my left is a maniac. Raises every hand pre-flop then plays reasonably straight after that. QQ is strong, but I know that raising will not get me anywhere as far as # of opponents, so I call. Maniac raises. We got to the flop 4 way action.

QUESTION 1: Should I have raised in this situation?

MY THOUGHTS AT THE TIME: No one is calling unless they have a hand that will call a raise, so raise means I end up putting 3 bets in the pot instead of 2, with no change in the table dynamics. And QQ is not so strong against hands that will call that I am dying to get more $$ in the pot pre-flop.

The flop comes down 5-7-5 rainbow. Great flop for me. I bet, it's called around.

Turn is a 4. Not a great card for me, but I don't think anyone is playing 3-6 or 6-8, so I bet. Maniac calls leaving us heads up.

River is a 2. The board is 5-7-5-4-2 I bet, maniac raises. I've seen him try this as a bluff before, so I call. Maniac turns over 2-2.

QUESTION 2: Anything I could have done to get away from this hand? Or do I just add this to my sorry story pile?

*******************************************
I am in early position again, maniac in the same position. I am dealt AK suited. I call, intending to reraise the maniac and hopefully get heads up. Maniac raises, I reraise, he caps. We go to the flop 5 way action. (I couldn't believe 3 other people came along for 4 bets....)

QUESTION 3: Was my thinking correct?

MY THINKING AT THE TIME: I was hoping to get 2-3 callers between me and the maniac, and then force them out by having to call 2 bets with a known raise coming with my raise. Put some $$ in the pot AND eliminate them. Did I get greedy?

Flop comes 3-7-10. Player to my right bets out. I fold.

QUESTION 4: Was my fold the right move?

MY THINKING AT THE TIME: With all the pre-flop raising, I assumed that anyone who would bet out at me from my right must have gotten nailed by the flop (although how that could be except for 10-10, I don't know).

Of course, the turn was a K and the pot was won by a player holding KQ offsuit.

At which point I vomited and lit myself on fire.

Thoughts?
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Hand Analyses, 4 POKER, 19. Oct 2003 15:11
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Hi Hokie,

I'll give you my thoughts throughout:


on 19. Oct 2003 14:40 hokie95 wrote:
> Ok, played live on Friday night. 3-6 HE. Need some thoughts on 2 hands,
> although I think I already know the answer:
>
> Hand 1:
>
> I am 2 off the BB, dealt QQ. The player 4 to my left is a maniac. Raises
> every hand pre-flop then plays reasonably straight after that. QQ is strong,
> but I know that raising will not get me anywhere as far as # of opponents, so I
> call. Maniac raises. We got to the flop 4 way action.
>
> QUESTION 1: Should I have raised in this situation?

4P- In that spot I would have raised it coming in, in hopes that the maniac would re-raise me so there would be a stronger possibility of eliminating the rest of the field.
>
> MY THOUGHTS AT THE TIME: No one is calling unless they have a hand that will
> call a raise, so raise means I end up putting 3 bets in the pot instead of 2,
> with no change in the table dynamics. And QQ is not so strong against hands
> that will call that I am dying to get more $$ in the pot pre-flop.
>
> The flop comes down 5-7-5 rainbow. Great flop for me. I bet, it's called
> around.
>
> Turn is a 4. Not a great card for me, but I don't think anyone is playing 3-6
> or 6-8, so I bet. Maniac calls leaving us heads up.
>
> River is a 2. The board is 5-7-5-4-2 I bet, maniac raises. I've seen him try
> this as a bluff before, so I call. Maniac turns over 2-2.
>
> QUESTION 2: Anything I could have done to get away from this hand? Or do I
> just add this to my sorry story pile?

4P- In my opinion, if you were going to lead at the flop and the turn against several opponents anyway......You would have been better off raising your Q-Q pre-flop to get rid of some of the more questionable holdings that would call one raise, but may not call 2 raises cold. Although Q-Q can be vulnerable, it is more vulnerable (unless you flop really good, like a set), when you are faced with more opponents being in the hand now. Holdings like that are definitely strong enough to put a raise in with pre-flop and if I had a maniac sitting to my left, would make me apt to put in that raise. If he 3 bets you pre-flop, you stand a much greater chance of folding off the players behind him, and Q-Q will play better in a heads up situation; although multi-way can be okay......even if the board never comes up with an overcard, there will be small pocket pairs and medium straight draws that will crush your holding if you let them in for too cheap a price. I'd rather try to narrow the field first, and then take it from there. But still....with that flop that you received, I would bet it until I was proven that two Queens were indeed no good! (and the turn card could give you a better read sometimes as to, IF your hand is no good. Does the turn card complete a straight, or did the turn card bring an overcard, etc., etc.?) Is the action now getting very aggresive? Or do you think that you're still in the lead. Those are some of the questions and thoughts that would go through my mind.
You say that the maniac had 2-2?......well God bless 'em.
>
> *******************************************
> I am in early position again, maniac in the same position. I am dealt AK
> suited. I call, intending to reraise the maniac and hopefully get heads up.
> Maniac raises, I reraise, he caps. We go to the flop 5 way action. (I couldn't
> believe 3 other people came along for 4 bets....)
>
> QUESTION 3: Was my thinking correct?

4P- A-K suited (imo) plays well heads up or multi-way. I would play that hand in that spot both ways. I would limp in and if it was raised behind me, I may chose to to do the limp-re-raise. I may also chose to just raise it myself coming in. But being suited will add more to the holding, thus it plays well multi-way, also. But when there IS multiple callers calling capped bets, alot of times you're going to have to hit your hand twice or play for the flush. (but that depends alot on your opponents too, and what type of hands would they call capped bets with pre-flop, and how do they play their hands post-flop, and how well can you read your opponents, etc., etc..
>
> MY THINKING AT THE TIME: I was hoping to get 2-3 callers between me and the
> maniac, and then force them out by having to call 2 bets with a known raise
> coming with my raise. Put some $$ in the pot AND eliminate them. Did I get
> greedy?

4P- I don't think it's a matter of being greedy, and if you know your players well and what their standards are for calling capped bets...you can profit from this type of holding. However......Although AK suited is a strong drawing hand, it's still a hand that has to hit against multiple opponents. (most of the time).
>
> Flop comes 3-7-10. Player to my right bets out. I fold.
>
> QUESTION 4: Was my fold the right move?

4P- I think I would have called, and then see what the action was behind me, and if it was then raised and/or re-raised, I'd probably fold it.....then. But I would call the one small bet and try to peel off a card cheaply, as with the pot being so big already, and if I turned something that hit my hand, (like an A, or a K, or a draw to the flush),and I would play it accordingly to the action that takes place then. But when players put in multiple bets pre-flop, sometimes if you hit your pair on the turn, it will give somebody two pair, (like Aces and tens, or Kings and tens). But that will also depend on exactly how loose these players 'were'. I don't think it was a bad fold on your part, but I still may chose to call one small bet (if I could get in that cheaply), and just proceed from there.
>
> MY THINKING AT THE TIME: With all the pre-flop raising, I assumed that anyone
> who would bet out at me from my right must have gotten nailed by the flop
> (although how that could be except for 10-10, I don't know).
>
> Of course, the turn was a K and the pot was won by a player holding KQ offsuit.
>
>
> At which point I vomited and lit myself on fire.
>
> Thoughts?

4P- don't light yourself on fire!


4P-
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Hand Analyses, hokie95, 19. Oct 2003 17:23
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
Thanks, my comments/requests for clarifications are surrounded by **'s.

on 19. Oct 2003 15:11 4 POKER wrote:
> Hi Hokie,
>
> I'll give you my thoughts throughout:
>
>
> on 19. Oct 2003 14:40 hokie95 wrote:
> > Ok, played live on Friday night. 3-6 HE. Need some thoughts on 2 hands,
> > although I think I already know the answer:
> >
> > Hand 1:
> >
> > I am 2 off the BB, dealt QQ. The player 4 to my left is a maniac. Raises
> > every hand pre-flop then plays reasonably straight after that. QQ is strong,
> > but I know that raising will not get me anywhere as far as # of opponents, so I
> > call. Maniac raises. We got to the flop 4 way action.
> >
> > QUESTION 1: Should I have raised in this situation?
>
> 4P- In that spot I would have raised it coming in, in hopes that the maniac would
> re-raise me so there would be a stronger possibility of eliminating the rest of the
> field.

**Yeah, that's what I thought after the hand. That doesn't solve getting rid of the maniac with 2's though. I guess that's a shrug and smile, because I couldn't have been more aggressive after the flop. Right?**

> >
> > MY THOUGHTS AT THE TIME: No one is calling unless they have a hand that will
> > call a raise, so raise means I end up putting 3 bets in the pot instead of 2,
> > with no change in the table dynamics. And QQ is not so strong against hands
> > that will call that I am dying to get more $$ in the pot pre-flop.
> >
> > The flop comes down 5-7-5 rainbow. Great flop for me. I bet, it's called
> > around.
> >
> > Turn is a 4. Not a great card for me, but I don't think anyone is playing 3-6
> > or 6-8, so I bet. Maniac calls leaving us heads up.
> >
> > River is a 2. The board is 5-7-5-4-2 I bet, maniac raises. I've seen him try
> > this as a bluff before, so I call. Maniac turns over 2-2.
> >
> > QUESTION 2: Anything I could have done to get away from this hand? Or do I
> > just add this to my sorry story pile?
>
> 4P- In my opinion, if you were going to lead at the flop and the turn against
> several opponents anyway......You would have been better off raising your Q-Q
> pre-flop to get rid of some of the more questionable holdings that would call one
> raise, but may not call 2 raises cold. Although Q-Q can be vulnerable, it is more
> vulnerable (unless you flop really good, like a set), when you are faced with more
> opponents being in the hand now. Holdings like that are definitely strong enough to
> put a raise in with pre-flop and if I had a maniac sitting to my left, would make me
> apt to put in that raise. If he 3 bets you pre-flop, you stand a much greater chance
> of folding off the players behind him, and Q-Q will play better in a heads up
> situation; although multi-way can be okay......even if the board never comes up with
> an overcard, there will be small pocket pairs and medium straight draws that will
> crush your holding if you let them in for too cheap a price. I'd rather try to narrow
> the field first, and then take it from there. But still....with that flop that you
> received, I would bet it until I was proven that two Queens were indeed no good! (and
> the turn card could give you a better read sometimes as to, IF your hand is no good.
> Does the turn card complete a straight, or did the turn card bring an overcard, etc.,
> etc.?) Is the action now getting very aggresive? Or do you think that you're still in
> the lead. Those are some of the questions and thoughts that would go through my
> mind.
> You say that the maniac had 2-2?......well God bless 'em.

**Yeah, my thoughts afterwards were that I did almost everything I could to show strength for the first 3 rounds. A pre-flop raise would not have driven him out, as I knew it wouldn't. This is just a hand where the wrong end of the ratio showed up to party with us.**

> >
> > *******************************************
> > I am in early position again, maniac in the same position. I am dealt AK
> > suited. I call, intending to reraise the maniac and hopefully get heads up.
> > Maniac raises, I reraise, he caps. We go to the flop 5 way action. (I couldn't
>
> > believe 3 other people came along for 4 bets....)
> >
> > QUESTION 3: Was my thinking correct?
>
> 4P- A-K suited (imo) plays well heads up or multi-way. I would play that hand in
> that spot both ways. I would limp in and if it was raised behind me, I may chose to
> to do the limp-re-raise. I may also chose to just raise it myself coming in. But
> being suited will add more to the holding, thus it plays well multi-way, also. But
> when there IS multiple callers calling capped bets, alot of times you're going to
> have to hit your hand twice or play for the flush. (but that depends alot on your
> opponents too, and what type of hands would they call capped bets with pre-flop, and
> how do they play their hands post-flop, and how well can you read your opponents,
> etc., etc..

**So, a fair summary is that I can't screw-up here? (Except for table conditions, blah blah blah...)

Related question: Does a limp, re-raise show more strength than a raise? Or less? And, are a group of initial callers more apt to call a re-raise (2 more bets to go after contributing 1 already) than the initial 2 bets cold? This question has been nagging me since this hand.**

> >
> > MY THINKING AT THE TIME: I was hoping to get 2-3 callers between me and the
> > maniac, and then force them out by having to call 2 bets with a known raise
> > coming with my raise. Put some $$ in the pot AND eliminate them. Did I get
> > greedy?
>
> 4P- I don't think it's a matter of being greedy, and if you know your players well
> and what their standards are for calling capped bets...you can profit from this type
> of holding. However......Although AK suited is a strong drawing hand, it's still a
> hand that has to hit against multiple opponents. (most of the time).
> >
> > Flop comes 3-7-10. Player to my right bets out. I fold.
> >
> > QUESTION 4: Was my fold the right move?
>
> 4P- I think I would have called, and then see what the action was behind me, and if
> it was then raised and/or re-raised, I'd probably fold it.....then. But I would call
> the one small bet and try to peel off a card cheaply, as with the pot being so big
> already, and if I turned something that hit my hand, (like an A, or a K, or a draw to
> the flush),and I would play it accordingly to the action that takes place then. But
> when players put in multiple bets pre-flop, sometimes if you hit your pair on the
> turn, it will give somebody two pair, (like Aces and tens, or Kings and tens). But
> that will also depend on exactly how loose these players 'were'. I don't think it was
> a bad fold on your part, but I still may chose to call one small bet (if I could get
> in that cheaply), and just proceed from there.

**Yeah, I regretted the fold (which I pondered for a second with 2 overcards) from the second the cards left my hand. Assuming no one has a set, I likely have 6 outs and the pot is about $63 right then, with heavy implied odds and no likely raiser. (The maniac played pretty straight forward after the flop, so I had little worry of a raise.) That is 21:1 pot odds with 6 outs out of 47 cards. The fact that the K came on the turn only makes my knowledge that the math was there for the call even worse. Sigh. **

> >
> > MY THINKING AT THE TIME: With all the pre-flop raising, I assumed that anyone
> > who would bet out at me from my right must have gotten nailed by the flop
> > (although how that could be except for 10-10, I don't know).
> >
> > Of course, the turn was a K and the pot was won by a player holding KQ offsuit.
> >
> >
> > At which point I vomited and lit myself on fire.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> 4P- don't light yourself on fire!

**But vomiting is ok?**

>
>
> 4P-

-Hokie95 "Richard, do I have a mark on my face? Not here, or here, but riiiight heeeerrreeeee."
        Return to Thread List
 
 
Re: Hand Analyses, 4 POKER, 19. Oct 2003 19:09
    View ( Message | Thread )       Return to Thread List
on 19. Oct 2003 17:23 hokie95 wrote:
> Thanks, my comments/requests for clarifications are surrounded by **'s.
>
hokie, my new comments are underneath your **'s.

> on 19. Oct 2003 15:11 4 POKER wrote:
> > Hi Hokie,
> >
> > I'll give you my thoughts throughout:
> >
> >
> > on 19. Oct 2003 14:40 hokie95 wrote:
> > > Ok, played live on Friday night. 3-6 HE. Need some thoughts on 2 hands,
> > > although I think I already know the answer:
> > >
> > > Hand 1:
> > >
> > > I am 2 off the BB, dealt QQ. The player 4 to my left is a maniac. Raises
> > > every hand pre-flop then plays reasonably straight after that. QQ is strong,
> > > but I know that raising will not get me anywhere as far as # of opponents, so I
> > > call. Maniac raises. We got to the flop 4 way action.
> > >
> > > QUESTION 1: Should I have raised in this situation?
> >
> > 4P- In that spot I would have raised it coming in, in hopes that the maniac would
> > re-raise me so there would be a stronger possibility of eliminating the rest of the
> > field.
>
> **Yeah, that's what I thought after the hand. That doesn't solve getting rid of the
> maniac with 2's though. I guess that's a shrug and smile, because I couldn't have been
> more aggressive after the flop. Right?**

4P- no, it does not get rid of the maniac with the pocket dueces, but that doesn't or shouldn't leave you doubting yourself had you chose to raise your hand coming in. Even if you make a correct decision/choice,that 'you' feel is the most optimal way to play your hand.... it doesn't guarantee you that you'll win the hand.
>
> > >
> > > MY THOUGHTS AT THE TIME: No one is calling unless they have a hand that will
> > > call a raise, so raise means I end up putting 3 bets in the pot instead of 2,
> > > with no change in the table dynamics. And QQ is not so strong against hands
> > > that will call that I am dying to get more $$ in the pot pre-flop.
> > >
> > > The flop comes down 5-7-5 rainbow. Great flop for me. I bet, it's called
> > > around.
> > >
> > > Turn is a 4. Not a great card for me, but I don't think anyone is playing 3-6
> > > or 6-8, so I bet. Maniac calls leaving us heads up.
> > >
> > > River is a 2. The board is 5-7-5-4-2 I bet, maniac raises. I've seen him try
> > > this as a bluff before, so I call. Maniac turns over 2-2.
> > >
> > > QUESTION 2: Anything I could have done to get away from this hand? Or do I
> > > just add this to my sorry story pile?
> >
> > 4P- In my opinion, if you were going to lead at the flop and the turn against
> > several opponents anyway......You would have been better off raising your Q-Q
> > pre-flop to get rid of some of the more questionable holdings that would call one
> > raise, but may not call 2 raises cold. Although Q-Q can be vulnerable, it is more
> > vulnerable (unless you flop really good, like a set), when you are faced with more
> > opponents being in the hand now. Holdings like that are definitely strong enough to
> > put a raise in with pre-flop and if I had a maniac sitting to my left, would make me
> > apt to put in that raise. If he 3 bets you pre-flop, you stand a much greater chance
>
> > of folding off the players behind him, and Q-Q will play better in a heads up
> > situation; although multi-way can be okay......even if the board never comes up with
> > an overcard, there will be small pocket pairs and medium straight draws that will
> > crush your holding if you let them in for too cheap a price. I'd rather try to narrow
>
> > the field first, and then take it from there. But still....with that flop that you
> > received, I would bet it until I was proven that two Queens were indeed no good! (and
>
> > the turn card could give you a better read sometimes as to, IF your hand is no good.
> > Does the turn card complete a straight, or did the turn card bring an overcard, etc.,
>
> > etc.?) Is the action now getting very aggresive? Or do you think that you're still in
>
> > the lead. Those are some of the questions and thoughts that would go through my
> > mind.
> > You say that the maniac had 2-2?......well God bless 'em.
>
> **Yeah, my thoughts afterwards were that I did almost everything I could to show strength
> for the first 3 rounds. A pre-flop raise would not have driven him out, as I knew it
> wouldn't. This is just a hand where the wrong end of the ratio showed up to party with
> us.**
>
4P- Exactly. But if you had the choice to play Q-Q heads up every time against 2-2......would you? (of course you would)!
> > >
> > > *******************************************
> > > I am in early position again, maniac in the same position. I am dealt AK
> > > suited. I call, intending to reraise the maniac and hopefully get heads up.
> > > Maniac raises, I reraise, he caps. We go to the flop 5 way action. (I couldn't
> >
> > > believe 3 other people came along for 4 bets....)
> > >
> > > QUESTION 3: Was my thinking correct?
> >
> > 4P- A-K suited (imo) plays well heads up or multi-way. I would play that hand in
> > that spot both ways. I would limp in and if it was raised behind me, I may chose to
> > to do the limp-re-raise. I may also chose to just raise it myself coming in. But
> > being suited will add more to the holding, thus it plays well multi-way, also. But
> > when there IS multiple callers calling capped bets, alot of times you're going to
> > have to hit your hand twice or play for the flush. (but that depends alot on your
> > opponents too, and what type of hands would they call capped bets with pre-flop, and
> > how do they play their hands post-flop, and how well can you read your opponents,
> > etc., etc..
>
> **So, a fair summary is that I can't screw-up here? (Except for table conditions, blah
> blah blah...)

4P- well the "bla, bla's" are very important factors! (LOL). But yes. The time that you would screw up with AK, is if your hand was totally dominated coming in, but with the hand being suited, it does allow you to flop clean draws/outs. Are there very tight players in the hand? WHO is in the hand, exactly, etc., etc.. Also, players that will habitually keep raising and betting with AK post-flop......will also show poor results when the situation doesn't warrant them to even a call. (knowing and observing your players can allow you to get a better feel for how you chose to play the hand post-flop, and even pre-flop). But to sum it up......AK suited can be played for capped bets pre-flop. It's knowing when to release it, or to keep playin' on. Again, that depends on many different things.
>
> Related question: Does a limp, re-raise show more strength than a raise? Or less? And,
> are a group of initial callers more apt to call a re-raise (2 more bets to go after
> contributing 1 already) than the initial 2 bets cold? This question has been nagging me
> since this hand.**

4P- perhaps they would call two more initial bets. (it's not a guarantee that they would though). Does it show more strength by limp-re-raising? I think it may. ('depends who's paying attention, if anybody)!!

> > >
> > > MY THINKING AT THE TIME: I was hoping to get 2-3 callers between me and the
> > > maniac, and then force them out by having to call 2 bets with a known raise
> > > coming with my raise. Put some $$ in the pot AND eliminate them. Did I get
> > > greedy?
> >
> > 4P- I don't think it's a matter of being greedy, and if you know your players well
> > and what their standards are for calling capped bets...you can profit from this type
> > of holding. However......Although AK suited is a strong drawing hand, it's still a
> > hand that has to hit against multiple opponents. (most of the time).
> > >
> > > Flop comes 3-7-10. Player to my right bets out. I fold.
> > >
> > > QUESTION 4: Was my fold the right move?
> >
> > 4P- I think I would have called, and then see what the action was behind me, and if
> > it was then raised and/or re-raised, I'd probably fold it.....then. But I would call
> > the one small bet and try to peel off a card cheaply, as with the pot being so big
> > already, and if I turned something that hit my hand, (like an A, or a K, or a draw to
>
> > the flush),and I would play it accordingly to the action that takes place then. But
> > when players put in multiple bets pre-flop, sometimes if you hit your pair on the
> > turn, it will give somebody two pair, (like Aces and tens, or Kings and tens). But
> > that will also depend on exactly how loose these players 'were'. I don't think it was
>
> > a bad fold on your part, but I still may chose to call one small bet (if I could get
> > in that cheaply), and just proceed from there.
>
> **Yeah, I regretted the fold (which I pondered for a second with 2 overcards) from the
> second the cards left my hand. Assuming no one has a set, I likely have 6 outs and the
> pot is about $63 right then, with heavy implied odds and no likely raiser. (The maniac
> played pretty straight forward after the flop, so I had little worry of a raise.) That is
> 21:1 pot odds with 6 outs out of 47 cards. The fact that the K came on the turn only
> makes my knowledge that the math was there for the call even worse. Sigh. **
>
> > >
> > > MY THINKING AT THE TIME: With all the pre-flop raising, I assumed that anyone
> > > who would bet out at me from my right must have gotten nailed by the flop
> > > (although how that could be except for 10-10, I don't know).
> > >
> > > Of course, the turn was a K and the pot was won by a player holding KQ offsuit.
> > >
> > >
> > > At which point I vomited and lit myself on fire.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> >
> > 4P- don't light yourself on fire!
>
> **But vomiting is ok?**

4P- absolutely! (as long as it doesn't go all over your computer screen).
>
> >
> >
> > 4P-
>
> -Hokie95 "Richard, do I have a mark on my face? Not here, or here, but riiiight
> heeeerrreeeee."
        Return to Thread List
 
 
       POKER FORUM HOME   |   POKER FORUM   |   LINK TO US   |   ARCHIVE   |   ONLINE POKER Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum  
Getting Started |  UPF Tournaments |  Poker News, Views, Rules |  Poker Strategy & Psychology |  Money and Bankroll
Poker Bonuses & Promotions |  World Series of Poker (WSOP) |  Play Online Poker |  Poker Odds & Statistics |  Tournament Poker |  Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools
Looking for a Poker Game |  Poker Bad Beats |  Not Quite Poker |  Quizzes and Polls |  Forum Suggestions & Bugs

Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network | Find Vancouver Businesses