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Hand analysis, Mark, 19. Oct 2003 10:51
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This is from a $5-10 on line game. I wasn't sure where i was on the turn and would like to know what everyone thinks the best play would be.

I just came to the table 5 minutes ago. The stats were 36% seeing the flop and average pot of ~$100.

Its one limper to me in mp with JcQc. The limper is UTG and seems to be loose pre-flop. The few hands i've seen so far have been played tight passive (with small pots), so i decided to raise.

I think my raise a good chance of getting heads up with UTG or 3 handed.

The SB, BB and UTG limper call.

THE FLOP (3c, 5c, 7d )

A flush draw and overcards!
All check to me, i bet, SB calls, BB folds, UTG check raises me. I decide to 3 bet to take control of the hand, eliminate the SB and take a free card if necessary.

SB calls, UTG caps, and we both call. I didn't have much of a read on either player, but i did definately consider that SB may be on a higher flush draw. I read the UTG for top 2 pair or a set, with a set being more probable.

I'm not sure what else the SB could call with except a higher flush draw. i guess 2 pair is possible, but don't know.

THE TURN (3c, 5c, 7d - 8c )

A flush!
SB checks, UTG bets. I figure to have the UTG beat, and have no clue what the SB has, but am scared of a bigger flush. I call, figuring that he can call or fold a weak hand or check raise the nuts. If he calls i may get an extra big bet in the pot on the river.

Also, a cheap card here can't be too hurtful to me. If he has the A or K of clubs, he would be calling anyway.

I don't usually play scared of the nuts, but what could the SB have but a solid draw. He called 4 bets on the flop with out raising from early position.

SB only calls.

THE RIVER (3c, 5c, 7d, 8c- 2c)

Now with a 4 flush on the board everyone checks. I figured that i couldn't get called on the River unless i was beat so there was no value in betting.

I win the pot. UTG had 55 for a flopped set and SB had 4c5h (?)!
he flopped 2nd pair and a gutshot draw.

How would you all have read the hand and played the turn and river?

In retrospect, I was way off on my read, but AT MOST only missed one bet on the river, if any.

It seems that my regular game is starting to loosen up, which is great, but it does put me in more situations where i'm not sure where i am.


Mark
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Re: Hand analysis, KJo, 19. Oct 2003 11:10
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I question not only the pre-flop raise but also the 3-betting on the flop. I would have read UTG for an overpair or a set, possibly a nut flush draw. And the SB I would have read for a flush draw since he was chasing the whole time.

QJs is not a great hand, its only strong value is as a draw for a straight or flush, so raising pre-flop is questionable. Draws want callers.

If you were trying for a flush, I have no idea why you were reraising on the flop, you should be trying to keep people in. If you were afraid of a larger flush, you shouldn't be reraising the flop either, since you're not only drawing dead to the higher flush but your overcards are likely no good because of the set.

BTW, counting your QJ as outs since they're overcards is dangerous- either one could hit but give someone else two-pair or a better kicker. They're weak overcards, that's why QJ is a trap hand.

And when the UTG bets out on the turn after the cap pre-flop, I would be about 50/50 between him having a set or having a flush (which is pretty much guaranteed to be higher than yours) When the SB only calls I would know I have him beat. Regardless, I'd call down to the river rather than raise the turn- you could already be beat, and if he has a set he still has outs to beat you.

The 4-flush really screwed things up for you, just calling was the right move here.

Eli

on 19. Oct 2003 10:51 Mark wrote:
> This is from a $5-10 on line game. I wasn't sure where i was on the turn and
> would like to know what everyone thinks the best play would be.
>
> I just came to the table 5 minutes ago. The stats were 36% seeing the flop and
> average pot of ~$100.
>
> Its one limper to me in mp with JcQc. The limper is UTG and seems to be loose
> pre-flop. The few hands i've seen so far have been played tight passive (with
> small pots), so i decided to raise.
>
> I think my raise a good chance of getting heads up with UTG or 3 handed.
>
> The SB, BB and UTG limper call.
>
> THE FLOP (3c, 5c, 7d )
>
> A flush draw and overcards!
> All check to me, i bet, SB calls, BB folds, UTG check raises me. I decide to 3
> bet to take control of the hand, eliminate the SB and take a free card if
> necessary.
>
> SB calls, UTG caps, and we both call. I didn't have much of a read on either
> player, but i did definately consider that SB may be on a higher flush draw. I
> read the UTG for top 2 pair or a set, with a set being more probable.
>
> I'm not sure what else the SB could call with except a higher flush draw. i
> guess 2 pair is possible, but don't know.
>
> THE TURN (3c, 5c, 7d - 8c )
>
> A flush!
> SB checks, UTG bets. I figure to have the UTG beat, and have no clue what the
> SB has, but am scared of a bigger flush. I call, figuring that he can call or
> fold a weak hand or check raise the nuts. If he calls i may get an extra big
> bet in the pot on the river.
>
> Also, a cheap card here can't be too hurtful to me. If he has the A or K of
> clubs, he would be calling anyway.
>
> I don't usually play scared of the nuts, but what could the SB have but a solid
> draw. He called 4 bets on the flop with out raising from early position.
>
> SB only calls.
>
> THE RIVER (3c, 5c, 7d, 8c- 2c)
>
> Now with a 4 flush on the board everyone checks. I figured that i couldn't get
> called on the River unless i was beat so there was no value in betting.
>
> I win the pot. UTG had 55 for a flopped set and SB had 4c5h (?)!
> he flopped 2nd pair and a gutshot draw.
>
> How would you all have read the hand and played the turn and river?
>
> In retrospect, I was way off on my read, but AT MOST only missed one bet on the
> river, if any.
>
> It seems that my regular game is starting to loosen up, which is great, but it
> does put me in more situations where i'm not sure where i am.
>
>
> Mark
>
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Re: Hand analysis, Mark, 19. Oct 2003 13:50
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Hi KJo

I really appreciate your comments, but would like to futher discuss/explain a few points. Let me know if you agree.

> I question not only the pre-flop raise but also the 3-betting on the flop. I would
> have read UTG for an overpair or a set, possibly a nut flush draw. And the SB I
> would have read for a flush draw since he was chasing the whole time.
>
> QJs is not a great hand, its only strong value is as a draw for a straight or flush,
> so raising pre-flop is questionable. Draws want callers.

I agree that QJ (even suited) is a weak hand. Normally i would limp in that postion. But i felt that seemingly tight nature of the table and the opportunity to get heads up agaisnt a questionable hand (as utg player was likely to have) would be a profitable situation.

This is not normal play for me, but i thought the situation may warrant the play.

>
> If you were trying for a flush, I have no idea why you were reraising on the flop,
> you should be trying to keep people in.

I thought there were a few weak reasons that combined to make a strong agrument for 3-betting. At this point, i did not know the strenght of the utg player's hand. Yes. a check raise shows strength, but he may well only have top pair and an ace kicker.

My reasons for 3-betting
1. to define utg's hand
2. get a free card if necessary
3. push out an overcard hand like AJ,KJ, AQ, KQ and other 2nd and 3rd pairs with J or Q kickers.( the SB's holding) this way if a Q or J hits the turn, it may put me in the lead.


>If you were afraid of a larger flush, you
> shouldn't be reraising the flop either, since you're not only drawing dead to the
> higher flush but your overcards are likely no good because of the set.

I was not afraid of the higher flush or a set at this point. It was only after the flop was capped and the SB called that these became strong possibilities.

>
> BTW, counting your QJ as outs since they're overcards is dangerous- either one could
> hit but give someone else two-pair or a better kicker. They're weak overcards,
> that's why QJ is a trap hand.

As above, the 3-bet may push out those hands.

>
> And when the UTG bets out on the turn after the cap pre-flop, I would be about
> 50/50 between him having a set or having a flush (which is pretty much guaranteed to
> be higher than yours)

Right. I put him on a set because he capped the flop out of position. I didn't consider the flush to be such strong possibility. Unless he slow-played AKs pre-flop, there are any flush draws left worth check-raising or capping with out of position.

>When the SB only calls I would know I have him beat.

Exactly, i knew i had him beat once he called, but i am still wondering if raising the turn would be a good alternative to calling.

> Regardless, I'd call down to the river rather than raise the turn- you could already
> be beat, and if he has a set he still has outs to beat you.

Shouldn't i be charging sets to draw, since i'm in an +EV situation?

>
> The 4-flush really screwed things up for you, just calling was the right move
> here.
> Eli
>


Thanks for the thoughts Eli.

Mark
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Re: Hand analysis, modestmice, 19. Oct 2003 20:16
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on 19. Oct 2003 11:10 KJo wrote:
> I question not only the pre-flop raise but also the 3-betting on the flop. I would
> have read UTG for an overpair or a set, possibly a nut flush draw. And the SB I
> would have read for a flush draw since he was chasing the whole time.
>
> QJs is not a great hand, its only strong value is as a draw for a straight or flush,
> so raising pre-flop is questionable. Draws want callers.
>
> If you were trying for a flush, I have no idea why you were reraising on the flop,
> you should be trying to keep people in. If you were afraid of a larger flush, you
> shouldn't be reraising the flop either, since you're not only drawing dead to the
> higher flush but your overcards are likely no good because of the set.
>
> BTW, counting your QJ as outs since they're overcards is dangerous- either one could
> hit but give someone else two-pair or a better kicker. They're weak overcards,
> that's why QJ is a trap hand.
>
> And when the UTG bets out on the turn after the cap pre-flop, I would be about
> 50/50 between him having a set or having a flush (which is pretty much guaranteed to
> be higher than yours) When the SB only calls I would know I have him beat.
> Regardless, I'd call down to the river rather than raise the turn- you could already
> be beat, and if he has a set he still has outs to beat you.
>
> The 4-flush really screwed things up for you, just calling was the right move
> here.
>
> Eli
>
> on 19. Oct 2003 10:51 Mark wrote:
> > This is from a $5-10 on line game. I wasn't sure where i was on the turn and
> > would like to know what everyone thinks the best play would be.
> >
> > I just came to the table 5 minutes ago. The stats were 36% seeing the flop and
> > average pot of ~$100.
> >
> > Its one limper to me in mp with JcQc. The limper is UTG and seems to be loose
> > pre-flop. The few hands i've seen so far have been played tight passive (with
> > small pots), so i decided to raise.
> >
> > I think my raise a good chance of getting heads up with UTG or 3 handed.
> >
> > The SB, BB and UTG limper call.
> >
> > THE FLOP (3c, 5c, 7d )
> >
> > A flush draw and overcards!
> > All check to me, i bet, SB calls, BB folds, UTG check raises me. I decide to 3
> > bet to take control of the hand, eliminate the SB and take a free card if
> > necessary.
> >
> > SB calls, UTG caps, and we both call. I didn't have much of a read on either
> > player, but i did definately consider that SB may be on a higher flush draw. I
> > read the UTG for top 2 pair or a set, with a set being more probable.
> >
> > I'm not sure what else the SB could call with except a higher flush draw. i
> > guess 2 pair is possible, but don't know.
> >
> > THE TURN (3c, 5c, 7d - 8c )
> >
> > A flush!
> > SB checks, UTG bets. I figure to have the UTG beat, and have no clue what the
> > SB has, but am scared of a bigger flush. I call, figuring that he can call or
> > fold a weak hand or check raise the nuts. If he calls i may get an extra big
> > bet in the pot on the river.
> >
> > Also, a cheap card here can't be too hurtful to me. If he has the A or K of
> > clubs, he would be calling anyway.
> >
> > I don't usually play scared of the nuts, but what could the SB have but a solid
> > draw. He called 4 bets on the flop with out raising from early position.
> >
> > SB only calls.
> >
> > THE RIVER (3c, 5c, 7d, 8c- 2c)
> >
> > Now with a 4 flush on the board everyone checks. I figured that i couldn't get
> > called on the River unless i was beat so there was no value in betting.
> >
> > I win the pot. UTG had 55 for a flopped set and SB had 4c5h (?)!
> > he flopped 2nd pair and a gutshot draw.
> >
> > How would you all have read the hand and played the turn and river?
> >
> > In retrospect, I was way off on my read, but AT MOST only missed one bet on the
> > river, if any.
> >
> > It seems that my regular game is starting to loosen up, which is great, but it
> > does put me in more situations where i'm not sure where i am.
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >

i disagree totally with not raising the turn and check calling the river.
playing scared of the nut flush when you have no solid read on loose players that cold call any 2 cards pre flop (4-5, 5-5)
i would love to be in this situation anyday with these players and play it very aggressive.
preflop raise is not the worst play in the world, if you want to mix things up and/or know your up against some bad , loose players who will call 3 bets cold with 4-5os (lol)
raising the flop is not the worst play in the world either, but i would perhaps call the raise here and see the turn and raise then, but then he would put me on the flush (maybe, they seem bad) and just call. if you raise the flop at least you get some money in before u hit you hand, and they will obviously call caus they hit the flop. so debatable whether to raise or not.

-------------------------------------------------------------
"I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard
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Re: Hand analysis, PairTheBoard, 19. Oct 2003 12:22
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The $100 average pot size is an important factor here. It could just be an anomaly due to some recent big hands. Quite often though it indicates a maniac at the table who has really fired up the action, or possibly several loose and agressive players at the table. It really helps to watch such a table for a while to see where most of the action is coming from.

I might have raised with the QJs just to establish myself as an action player and one of the boys. Normally I would at most just limp and in some games even muck the hand anywhere but late position.

If the game is loose agressive as the average pot size suggests, then you have to wonder if the opponents you're against are of this type. If so it's hard to put them on anything. Either one of them could have anything from a flopped straight to one pair- gut shots. Certainly an Any Ace hand with paired kicker and backdoor nut flush draw is a possibilty as is Axs for the nut flush. Out of all these only one beats you on the turn. imo, Odds are you are best on the turn and you may very will get two callers to your raise on the turn, so I like the raise. imo, you will usually be best there.

I forget who it was, but one of the pros here was advocating agressive value bettin on the River. I asked him when he would abstain from making the value bet. One criteria he gave was when a major scare card hits in a multiway situation. The multiway aspect is mixed. Three players seeing the river looks multiway.. But they came from a short handed pool of 3 players seeing the flop. I usually reduce my estimates of possible well fitted holdings in a heads up or 3 handed situation, but increase the estimate as action indicates. Certainly the 4th club is a major scare card. Not only is the check raise possibility increased but players are very reluctant to call a bet with 4 suited cards out there. It certainly looks to me like a River check has adequate justification. If you had KQs it might make a difference. There could even be a King high flush out there that's not sure about betting out. Still, against some players and considering the shorthanded origin a bet here is still tempting. In some loose agressive 5-10 games it is not at all uncommon to see bets made and called on the river with 4 suited cards on board and no one with the flush.
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Re: Hand analysis, modestmice, 19. Oct 2003 20:18
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on 19. Oct 2003 12:22 PairTheBoard wrote:
> The $100 average pot size is an important factor here. It could just be an anomaly
> due to some recent big hands. Quite often though it indicates a maniac at the table
> who has really fired up the action, or possibly several loose and agressive players
> at the table. It really helps to watch such a table for a while to see where most of
> the action is coming from.
>
> I might have raised with the QJs just to establish myself as an action player and
> one of the boys. Normally I would at most just limp and in some games even muck the
> hand anywhere but late position.
>
> If the game is loose agressive as the average pot size suggests, then you have to
> wonder if the opponents you're against are of this type. If so it's hard to put them
> on anything. Either one of them could have anything from a flopped straight to one
> pair- gut shots. Certainly an Any Ace hand with paired kicker and backdoor nut flush
> draw is a possibilty as is Axs for the nut flush. Out of all these only one beats you
> on the turn. imo, Odds are you are best on the turn and you may very will get two
> callers to your raise on the turn, so I like the raise. imo, you will usually be best
> there.
>
> I forget who it was, but one of the pros here was advocating agressive value bettin
> on the River. I asked him when he would abstain from making the value bet. One
> criteria he gave was when a major scare card hits in a multiway situation. The
> multiway aspect is mixed. Three players seeing the river looks multiway.. But they
> came from a short handed pool of 3 players seeing the flop. I usually reduce my
> estimates of possible well fitted holdings in a heads up or 3 handed situation, but
> increase the estimate as action indicates. Certainly the 4th club is a major scare
> card. Not only is the check raise possibility increased but players are very
> reluctant to call a bet with 4 suited cards out there. It certainly looks to me like
> a River check has adequate justification. If you had KQs it might make a difference.
> There could even be a King high flush out there that's not sure about betting out.
> Still, against some players and considering the shorthanded origin a bet here is
> still tempting. In some loose agressive 5-10 games it is not at all uncommon to see
> bets made and called on the river with 4 suited cards on board and no one with the
> flush.

i would never check the river with a Q high flush

-------------------------------------------------------------
"I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard
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Re: Hand analysis, grant pittman, 19. Oct 2003 15:20
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Mark you explained how and why you played the hand the way you did but I would have done a few things differently. When you bet that flop and were check raised by the limper you have to think you are looking at a set a lot of the time. If this is the case you WON'T be getting a free card so reraising actually hurts you here. You don't want to get caught headsup with no hand and a draw for the maximum bets. I think a call here is more reasonable. On the turn when you make your hand you need to raise for sure. There is such a good chance you have the best hand AND you want any player who is drawing live to pay for it!! Yes you may be looking at another flush in the blind but calling here is just weak conservative poker. If the SB reraises you won't like it but you still have played your hand correctly. As it stood you gained a bet from the blind by just calling but lost a bet to the player with a set. On the river you have to bet when it is checked to you. The blind is likely the only player to have a hand that beats you but would he really check it twice in an attempt to raise???? I seriously doubt it....if he had you beat with a flush he would have made it on the turn but he didn't check raise when he was last to act so I don't think he made the flush. What hand could he possibly hold on that flop that he called one bet and then 2 more cold that could contain the king or ace of clubs??? You commented that you didn't bet the river because you didn't think you could get paid by a hand unless you were beat. Well......I think the way the betting went in this hand that there is NO WAY you weren't getting paid by the player with the set. The pot was big enough for him to pay and the betting was confusing enough on the turn for the player to now have doubts about what you held!!! I think you missed one bet for sure as the hand stood and possibly several more bets if the blind had flopped a straight or a set as well. This is hindsight I realize but the possibility wasn't explored by you since you flat called the turn. I believe the potential that the blind held a big hand and would have called on the turn is more than offset by the chance he has a bigger flush than yours and is trapping. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN
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Re: Hand analysis, Mark, 19. Oct 2003 18:22
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> When you bet that flop and were check raised by the
> limper you have to think you are looking at a set a lot of the time. If this is the
> case you WON'T be getting a free card so reraising actually hurts you here. You
> don't want to get caught headsup with no hand and a draw for the maximum bets. I

Hi Grant.

Both you and KJo think my flop 3-bet was a bad idea, amoung other things, and i'm starting to see why.

Lately (last 7 days), this particular $5-10 game has been really fired up. There are alot of new players sitting in with $600 and $700, and not knowing any more than hand rankings. I've been throwing away top pairs hands that would have won to flop raises and check raises with hands as weak as draws and 2nd pair with Ace kickers. I've also been running good ( i hate to admit it, but my 15 BB per hour can't be skill) and catching obvious bluffs.

In retrospect, after only 4 hands, i lumped this opponent with the other "new guys" really believed he may be check raising a weak hand.

Maybe my running good is affecting my play, because i never would have 3-bet in that situation last week, but most of yesterday and today, i really believed it was the correct play.

Mark
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Re: Hand analysis, modestmice, 19. Oct 2003 20:03
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on 19. Oct 2003 10:51 Mark wrote:
> This is from a $5-10 on line game. I wasn't sure where i was on the turn and
> would like to know what everyone thinks the best play would be.
>
> I just came to the table 5 minutes ago. The stats were 36% seeing the flop and
> average pot of ~$100.
>
> Its one limper to me in mp with JcQc. The limper is UTG and seems to be loose
> pre-flop. The few hands i've seen so far have been played tight passive (with
> small pots), so i decided to raise.
>
> I think my raise a good chance of getting heads up with UTG or 3 handed.
>
> The SB, BB and UTG limper call.
>
> THE FLOP (3c, 5c, 7d )
>
> A flush draw and overcards!
> All check to me, i bet, SB calls, BB folds, UTG check raises me. I decide to 3
> bet to take control of the hand, eliminate the SB and take a free card if
> necessary.
>
> SB calls, UTG caps, and we both call. I didn't have much of a read on either
> player, but i did definately consider that SB may be on a higher flush draw. I
> read the UTG for top 2 pair or a set, with a set being more probable.
>
> I'm not sure what else the SB could call with except a higher flush draw. i
> guess 2 pair is possible, but don't know.
>
> THE TURN (3c, 5c, 7d - 8c )
>
> A flush!
> SB checks, UTG bets. I figure to have the UTG beat, and have no clue what the
> SB has, but am scared of a bigger flush. I call, figuring that he can call or
> fold a weak hand or check raise the nuts. If he calls i may get an extra big
> bet in the pot on the river.
>
> Also, a cheap card here can't be too hurtful to me. If he has the A or K of
> clubs, he would be calling anyway.
>
> I don't usually play scared of the nuts, but what could the SB have but a solid
> draw. He called 4 bets on the flop with out raising from early position.
>
> SB only calls.
>
> THE RIVER (3c, 5c, 7d, 8c- 2c)
>
> Now with a 4 flush on the board everyone checks. I figured that i couldn't get
> called on the River unless i was beat so there was no value in betting.
>
> I win the pot. UTG had 55 for a flopped set and SB had 4c5h (?)!
> he flopped 2nd pair and a gutshot draw.
>
> How would you all have read the hand and played the turn and river?
>
> In retrospect, I was way off on my read, but AT MOST only missed one bet on the
> river, if any.
>
> It seems that my regular game is starting to loosen up, which is great, but it
> does put me in more situations where i'm not sure where i am.
>
>
> Mark
>

havnt read the posts, but you missed a raise on the turn and should have bet out on the river. you played this passive, imo

-------------------------------------------------------------
"I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard
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Re: Hand analysis, Schuster, 19. Oct 2003 20:41
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I know you said you were in MP, but even more information is necessary for me. If there were still 4 people left to act, it's different than if there were only 2.

That said, the raise before the flop could go either way, and I think it depends on how UTG plays after the flop. If he is likely to throw it away if he misses, or play his hand in a straightforward manner if he doesn't, then I like the raise. You felt it would probably get you heads up, with position, and against an opponent who you had under control. If he was tricky, or liked to chase a lot, then I like the raise a lot less, since QJ is unlikely to win without improvement, even against some pretty loose UTG preflop standards. Of course, I'd be more inclined to make the play if there were only 2 left to act after me rather than 4. Sometimes "middle position" and the like needs to be further broken down to get a true handle on the value of your hand.

On the flop, a checkraise smells like a set to me. At very least, a medium pair that flopped over the board. You said yourself you thought either a set or two pair, but would he really limp with something as bad as 7-5? I would have flat called. No sense trying to buy a free card when you know it isn't going to work.

As for the turn, I really think you need to raise here. You stated that a raise would not drive out a player holding the ace of trump, but so what? A lot of times, I see players saying they didn't raise because it wouldn't drive out whatever draw anyway, so they might as well save money if the draw hits. Bullflop! Sell your hand while you're a favorite to win it and you still have customers willing to pay for it. Do you think the ace will pay it off on the river if another club doesn't fall? Edges in hold'em are often pretty small, you need to exploit them to the fullest. As Mr. Cooke would say, the recurring sum of volume bet times edge equals expectation. You have better than a 4 to 1 edge against the trump ace, so bet as much as you can, it only adds to your expecation field, and in the long run, that is more profit. By just calling on the turn, you may be getting an extra bet from the small blind, but you're losing one from the UTG player. Don't play with monsters under the bed. If you can't feel good about your hand when you hit one of your "outs", then why are you paying to hit it?

On the river, you'd have to figure one would bet the ace if they had it. The only hand that beats you that would be worth checking would be the king, but given the action thus far, what hands could hold the king of clubs? Unless a player made the flush on the turn with KTs or something like that, there aren't many. I'd bet the river here. Since you are last to act, the others are more likely to suspect you of bluffing, and the pot is huge. You are pretty likely to get paid by someone with a lower club, or even the guy with the set.

I do condone you for recognizing a situation where there was greater expecation in raising with QJs before the flop. Deviating from stringent starting hand requirements when the situation calls for it is a good sign of solid poker thinking. Thanks for posting this hand Mark, it makes for a good thread. Good luck in future hands.

Lee
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Re: Hand analysis, modestmice, 19. Oct 2003 20:45
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good analysis lee
i think i would also lean more towards the call on the flop. raising when i think your behind is not always good, and u dont wann lose SB here either and be HU with a flush draw as yer only outs

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Re: Hand analysis, modestmice, 19. Oct 2003 20:46
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good analysis lee
i think i would also lean more towards the call on the flop. raising when i think your behind is not always good, and u dont wann lose SB here either and be HU with a flush draw as yer only outs

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raising the turn, Mark, 19. Oct 2003 22:45
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Hi all

Thanks for the thoughts.

I agree with everyone that i played the turn very passively, but i did so because i couldn't think of a probably hand for the SB to be calling with except a high draw.

If i played the hand the way that everyone thinks i should have and just called the flop, then yes i would raise the turn without another thought. That would be an automatic play. But because the SB called 4 bets on the flop i really started to wonder if my draw was second best.

I'm a little surprised that no one else would have slowed down because of this, but obviously my read was wrong and it's hard to argure when so many are stacked against me.

So, what kind of hands would you put the SB on after he calls 2 bets cold on the flop (the 2nd and 3rd bets) and then the cap?

Thanks again

Mark
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Re: raising the turn, modestmice, 20. Oct 2003 01:59
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on 19. Oct 2003 22:45 Mark wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Thanks for the thoughts.
>
> I agree with everyone that i played the turn very passively, but i did so because i
> couldn't think of a probably hand for the SB to be calling with except a high draw.
>
> If i played the hand the way that everyone thinks i should have and just called the
> flop, then yes i would raise the turn without another thought. That would be an
> automatic play. But because the SB called 4 bets on the flop i really started to
> wonder if my draw was second best.
>
> I'm a little surprised that no one else would have slowed down because of this, but
> obviously my read was wrong and it's hard to argure when so many are stacked against
> me.
>
> So, what kind of hands would you put the SB on after he calls 2 bets cold on the
> flop (the 2nd and 3rd bets) and then the cap?
>
> Thanks again
>
> Mark

trips. 4 bets does not seem like a draw to nut flush to me, and i dont see that 2 often, but not never. if i was the dude, i would put you one a draw and cap it with my trips and make you pay for your draw, then bet out on the turn and if u re raised i would know you hit the flush and would check call and see if i could river u....

-------------------------------------------------------------
"I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard
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Re: raising the turn, modestmice, 20. Oct 2003 02:04
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btw, i would definately check raise the preflop raiser with my set on the flop like he did and try and get u heads up. im still shocked 5-4os called all those bets (!) wow
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