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Server Time: 2/13/2012 4:12:00 PM PACIFIC |
 Comment on my Play, Barry T, 18. Oct 2003 20:58 | ||
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| H. This was a very short handed internet 15-30 cash game that has just filled up. A copuple of the players have not adjusted to the full sized game, especially Seat 9, who seems to still be raising way too many pots. I am in seat 1and the blinds are in 7 and 8. I am dealt Ah6h in early position. Seat 9, UTG limps, which is somewhat surprising. After a fold, I decide to limp also. I think about folding (of course) but decide I want to be in a hand with the 9 seat, as he is playing so badly. I think about raising to isolate him, but a) isolation raises do not work that well on-line these days and b) my hand would like a volume pot. So I limp (?) behind him with my semi-trash hand. Next p-ayer folds, and the next guy, a recent addition raises. Everyone folds to seat 9, who reraises, making it two more to me. I call (?) as does the raiser, so we are three handed. The flop comes AQ9-heartless and UTG wild guy checks. I think about betting, but decide to let the raiser lead so I check (?). OK, he bets as expected and UTG now raises. I think this is (might be) a pretty bogus attempt to get me to fold, so I call (?) and, good news, the original bettor calls behind me. The turn is the seeming blank 3c. UTG checks. Wierd sequence, but I need to cope with it. Unless he is playing a deeper game than I think, he is checking becaue his check-raise on the flop didn't work. And the guy behind me did not cap the flop. Maybe I am ahead, so I bet here (?) I get called by the guy behind, and UTG folds. Look, I know, but this is what happens on line. RIver is a 7h. I figure I must be in the lead, so I bet (?). Other guy folds so I win the very nice pot. I wish I could tell you what anyone had, but I have no idea (and probably would not believe it if I saw it). OK, is this excellent play and reading,. or idiotic overplaying of a bad hand for way too many bets that just got lucky? BarryT | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, gary ford, 18. Oct 2003 21:21 | ||
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| It depends---on whether you are famous or not--you did have 4 ???? in your post however---- congrats on winning the pot Gary | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, mkpoker, 18. Oct 2003 22:50 | ||
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| Sure feels presumptuous of me to criticize your play...but you asked (and I should add that my observations are based on playing 5/10 online, which is probably quite different than 15-30). First, I think it's a marginal call pre-flop. I'd limp in from that position only if the table was passive and I had reason to suspect that a good volume pot was coming. To help facilitate that volume, I think a limp is better than raise. Once it's raised and reraised pre-flop, I'd fold for sure. First, you're probably way behind at this point and second, you're likely to wind up with very few players remaining to see the flop...so the odds you'd be hoping for on a flush draw aren't likely to be there. The comes the flop...busting your hopes of a flush, leaving you with top-pair, no-kicker. It's bet and raised. You suggested that ths might be a "bogus attempt" to induce a fold. All I can say is that it would sure work on me! With such action, I'd assume that another player also had top pair, and it's a pretty safe bet that you're out-kicked. Once you reach the turn (and river), I agree with leading out. Their passive turn play is confusing and would lead me to reconsider my earlier assumption that one or both opponents held ace-face. You need to give them a chance to fold...which they did. --matt P.S. I very much enjoyed installment 2 of your SnG saga in CP...Can't wait to see how it turns out (I'm feeling optimistic)! | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Barry T, 19. Oct 2003 02:58 | ||
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| Hi. Last things first...thank you for reading and comenting on my Card Player article. The final installment will be out 11/21. I was really worried that hitting people with a lot of hands with a small comment on each might not go over very well as compared to a more typical column which uses a lot of words to cover a single hand. But several people seemed to like it. I may try another one next year, if the right situation presents itself. Second, it is not presumptious at all of you (or anyone) to coment. Unlike my columns (in which - so far anyway - I play very well or I do not write up the hands), the ones I post here are really marginal and I post them for interest, comment and debate rather than just to show people how wonderful I am. I make a lot of playing errors and marginal plays, and some of them could be insructive (for you or me I'm not sure) I do think my play was marginal, and I wil talk a bit more about the flop play in reply to 4POKER next. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, 4 POKER, 19. Oct 2003 00:59 | ||
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| Hi Barry, I (personally) don't like your hand in that spot against a full field when you aren't sure of their tendencies yet. The game went from very short handed to being a full game, and when that happens suddenly, players will still be playing aggresively pre-flop if they're not able to adjust quick enough. You did say that some of the players were still playing like it was a shorthanded game, so for those reasons alone I wouldn't limp in from a fairly early position with Ace/baby, suited or not..... But you may argue the point that by limping in, you may create for others to limp in behind you, thus creating the volume that you want to receive...however, once you limp, and then it's raised and re-raised, I'm not sure about calling those extra bets. Even though seat 9 was a very bad player, you still are contending with the unknown player, and having to put in 2 cold bets with that hand, doesn't seem like a very positive (?) play in my opinion. Like you said, that kind of holding wants volume (and for a cheap price); and although playing it against only one or two opponents has its advantages as well......I feel that the overall advantage of it is somewhat removed when you are faced with calling multiple bets pre-flop with that kind of hand. (?) I have a question. Would you have played the hand had the limit been a much higher one, everything being exactly even? If I'm off base here, just say so. I'm just trying to see if those limits are (perhaps) too low for you, or if I am missing out on something with this type of holding pre-flop. I understand you gave it good thought before you put those extra bets in, but, would you like to be in that spot with that hand if you could do it every time against a bad player and an unknown player for 3 bets. And yes, I know that how you play your hands post-flop matters alot........but I'm still curious about your pre-flop play. (thanks Barry). Dave | ||
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| Long answer: what was I thinking, Barry T, 19. Oct 2003 03:15 | ||
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| Hi. Your point about not knowing the tendencies of the field (except two other players) is well taken. If I knew the game was loose or passive or soemthing, my play might be more justifiable. As it is, I was really putting myself out on a limb. I want to comment about the high limit question. Frankly, the play i was making is more common for $80-$160 than it is for $15-$30. In those games, you will frequently have only one or two poor players and a bunch of fine players. It is sometimes considered reasonable by players of a certain style to go way out of their way to be in pot with the bad player(s), sometimes to the extent of raising with substandard hands, calling to not eliminate a bad player in the blind, or other means to be a pot with a weak one. This type of tactic is much less necessary in online $15-$30 where, forgive me, there are a lot of mediocre players and you do not need to get fancy to get the money. The play I was making, calling (and I am still thinking I might have been better off raising) the weak, loose, aggressive donor-type player is therefore more typical of higher limits. And yes, I do make the plays there as well. My thinking, which may well be flawed, was in fact that this guy was going nuts and I wanted to be in on the party, even at the risk of a few bets. I was certainly ready to cut and run if I saw myself getting into real trouble, but I felt the risk was worth the reward (lots of silly partially dead-money bets made by the player I was focussed on). Even though I am clearly willing to sacrifice hand quality to make this play, I was probaably conceding a little too much to the unknown field with a hand that marginal that early. Part of my thinking was that I knew this player was playing maniacally, but they did not, so that might also give me an edge. I always try to have a reason for my play. Was it good enough? I am still not sure. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Long answer: what was I thinking, 4 POKER, 19. Oct 2003 04:45 | ||
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| Hi Barry, Well thank you for sharing your thought process. Seriously, I appreciate it. I see that you were willing to risk a bit more upfront, for the possible reward it could give you on the later rounds, when playing against an opponent, where you would be getting much the best of it from. (I'm not sure if I would totally omit the possibility that, perhaps, that some of the new players in your game were watching you guys 'and the maniac' a bit before taking the seat). Maybe that's going out on a limb as well, but ya never know. Thanks again. Dave | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, grant pittman, 19. Oct 2003 07:19 | ||
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| Barry I likely would have dumped the hand when it came back at me for 2 more bets preflop. Since you don't know the players well, it's hard to say what is going on but I fear the situation that so often arises from this type of preflop action which is that someone has a stronger ace. How you won the pot is not clear to me but I tend towards paying off looser online than live simply because I have seen way too much of this kind of play online to confidently believe anyone!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Mark, 19. Oct 2003 10:06 | ||
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| Barry i would also have dumped the hand pre-flop for 2 more bets. Although you had a good read on hte UTG maniac, you did not have a read on the original raiser. On the flop, you read the situation well, but I would have come out betting. You set yourself up to face two bets by checking. As you know, its very common for the pre-flop bettor to follow up with a bet on the flop when checked to and you also knew that the UTG would be likely (or at least capable of) check raising with nothing. If you had bet and the pre-flop raiser calls or raises you, you then have a much better idea of where you are in the hand. Also, your bet would decrease the chances of the UTG player bluff check-raising. While i like to limp with AXs, I really think it was a mistake to play the hand for 3 bets. Although, you read it well post flop. Mark | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, LJH, 19. Oct 2003 11:53 | ||
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| BARRY, IT LOOKS LIKE A GREAT GAMBLE, AND YOU WON SO WHY QUESTION IT. LJH | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, chasepoker, 20. Oct 2003 12:40 | ||
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| I think LJH that Barry might not like to gamble when the odds are not in his favour no matter what the result is and he probably criticises his own play in order to improve and keep on winning. on 19. Oct 2003 11:53 LJH wrote: > BARRY, IT LOOKS LIKE A GREAT GAMBLE, AND YOU WON SO WHY QUESTION IT. LJH Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Ikke, 20. Oct 2003 03:07 | ||
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| It's close preflop, but would lean towards raising to get better aces out. It's likely that you have the best hand against this UTG guy, but if you get raised behind you after you limp then your postflop play might get difficult when an ace flops and it was raised preflop. I think you played badly on the flop. After UTG limp-reraises preflop and checks the flop I think you should know that it's likely he's going to play this hand funky. Futhermore, you should be worried about PF raiser behind having a better ace. So, I think you should bet this flop right there; to kinda protect yourself from getting a bet and a check-raise (what happened), so facing a difficult decision. Also, it might allow you to get a read early on. You basically let UTG pay more if he decides to play crazy and at the same time the impact of his play is likely to go down. You've got an easy turnbet IMO. UTG is typically playing like a tilted weirdo who wants to do everything to take the pot, but is failing miserably because he plays so strange that even the weakest minds know he got shite. What would you have done if PF raiser raised the turn here? Your riverbet is good as well. Basically because worse hands will call and better hands will call your bet and bet when you check to them. Getting raised here is extremely unlikely. So my only criticism is that IMO you played a guessing game on the flop and could have avoided that. Regards | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Barry T, 20. Oct 2003 10:28 | ||
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| Hi. After much more thought than this hand was worth, I agree with you. I definitely should have raised pre-flop. I was certain when I called that there was a good chance it would be three bets back to me (if anyone raised the bozo would too), and I was definitely going to call it. So I should have raised. No question. I have thought about betting the flop, and I agree. the play was virtually automatic the way I played it, and I had no idea where I stood. A bet would have helped. Barryt | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Formless, 20. Oct 2003 10:24 | ||
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| See my post on limping with medium strong hands because this hand is an excellent example of the principles involved. Even if your reads were good on every street you still lose or chop with this flop a lot, so this is some high variance poker. Here is how I see this hand: Maniac limps early because he has not adjusted to full table. BT limps with weak hand because UTG limp is sketchy. Mid position guy raises medium strong non-ace hand like KJs or 88 to buy the button. Maniac limp-reraises because he is a maniac, also to isolate with sketchy raiser. BT cold-calls the position raise and sketchy reraise. Notice the original raiser does not cap with his crappy hand. Original raiser bets position on the flop with anything, Maniac checkraises semibluffs. BT calls here because even if he is beat the pot is big, and A6 ends up chopping a lot with these boards. Original better calls with underpair or draw, he does not have an Ace. Maniac checks turn because he does not have an ace. Since the other guy doesn't have an ace either, BT bets, caller has underpair and probably gut draw. BT value bets river because opponent does not have an ace, and probably not a 7 either. With this board he was not on a draw, so he has an underpair and will often call. Opponent is sure Barry has at least an ace and folds. | ||
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