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Server Time: 3/19/2010 3:28:44 AM PACIFIC |
 Satifactory vs Maximizing, Angel, 18. Oct 2003 17:10 | ||
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| I got pretty annoyed when I read Schoonmaker's proposition that we strive for satisfactory rather than maximum results at poker because trying to maximize results who require us to do unpleasant things. There were a few other things in his book which got me going too - ie: Things like (paraphrasing), Those poker greast can do this and that but we'll never be that good. My reaction to statements like that have no place in a family forum so I'll leave it to your imagination. I wrote him an e-mail telling him what I thought of it too - it bounced. Anyway... I got back to the table yesterday after running outside for a smoke and caught a hand. I looked up and noted that the table had changed in the few hands that I was gone. Two new players and there had been a chip exodus from one end of the table to another. It was on me and I found myself trying to figure out how the texture of the game had changed prior to acting when that maximizing vs satisfactory line came back to me. I mucked and thought about it. I gave up awareness of what was going on at my table to go smoke. I could increase my awareness and hence edge but that would require me to not run out for a cigarette. And exactly how does a 25 year, 3-pack a day smoker not smoke for up to 8 hours at a time?! I quit or I'm drawing dead to 8 hours. I'd really hate admitting Schoonmaker was right. So I quit. Just finished 24 hours. Pretty happy with that and thought I'd share it. | ||
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| Re: Satifactory vs Maximizing, Roy Cooke, 18. Oct 2003 17:28 | ||
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| Hi Angel Well GOOD for you! Quitting smoking is going to be one of the best decisions of your life...Making your poker game more focused is only going to be a MINOR part of the positiveness of that decision. STAY TOUGH and keep us posted on the non-smoking results! That said, I agree that most humans do NOT want to do what it takes to perform at their best at poker. Often the right poker decision is an ugly personal decision (Such as being rude to put a player on tilt or hustling a live one that has no chance due to illness). But, you can perform your best and still be a human being! Both things should be important to you. I try to ask myself what "The perfect poker player" would do in any given poker situation and learn from my own answers. By the way, from your posts, I like your chances of long term success (I do not say that about too many players) Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 18. Oct 2003 17:10 Angel wrote: > I got pretty annoyed when I read Schoonmaker's proposition that we strive for > satisfactory rather than maximum results at poker because trying to maximize > results who require us to do unpleasant things. There were a few other things > in his book which got me going too - ie: Things like (paraphrasing), Those > poker greast can do this and that but we'll never be that good. My reaction to > statements like that have no place in a family forum so I'll leave it to your > imagination. I wrote him an e-mail telling him what I thought of it too - it > bounced. Anyway... > > I got back to the table yesterday after running outside for a smoke and caught > a hand. I looked up and noted that the table had changed in the few hands that > I was gone. Two new players and there had been a chip exodus from one end of > the table to another. It was on me and I found myself trying to figure out how > the texture of the game had changed prior to acting when that maximizing vs > satisfactory line came back to me. I mucked and thought about it. I gave up > awareness of what was going on at my table to go smoke. I could increase my > awareness and hence edge but that would require me to not run out for a > cigarette. And exactly how does a 25 year, 3-pack a day smoker not smoke for up > to 8 hours at a time?! I quit or I'm drawing dead to 8 hours. I'd really hate > admitting Schoonmaker was right. So I quit. Just finished 24 hours. Pretty > happy with that and thought I'd share it. | ||
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| Re: Satifactory vs Maximizing, ReMMy, 18. Oct 2003 18:21 | ||
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| Angel, If you break even at the tables for the rest of your life, you could still consider yourself a winner if poker is what causes you to quit smoking! Congrats and good luck, | ||
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| Re: Satifactory vs Maximizing, Candide, 20. Oct 2003 08:56 | ||
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| Just going to say good choice. No matter what the nature of the motivation is, smoking not only saves you money but me too (keep my insurance costs down, exercise, eat healthy, and don't smoke!!! :) | ||
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| Re: Satifactory vs Maximizing, Phish, 20. Oct 2003 10:32 | ||
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| on 18. Oct 2003 17:10 Angel wrote: > I got pretty annoyed when I read Schoonmaker's proposition that we strive for > satisfactory rather than maximum results at poker because trying to maximize > results who require us to do unpleasant things. There were a few other things > in his book which got me going too - ie: Things like (paraphrasing), Those > poker greast can do this and that but we'll never be that good. My reaction to > statements like that have no place in a family forum so I'll leave it to your > imagination. I wrote him an e-mail telling him what I thought of it too - it > bounced. Anyway... > >Wonder what he means by 'maximizing will cause us to do unpleasant things'. Does he mean we need to cheat or angle-shoot to maximize our results? Also, what did he mean when he says 'poker greats can do things we can never do'? Does he mean play more hands? | ||
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| Re: Satifactory vs Maximizing, Mark, 20. Oct 2003 14:46 | ||
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| I also have the book and think Shoonmaker really made some good points. When he says that to maximize profits we have to do unpleasant things, he means that to play the most efficient poker you can to win the most money you can, you have to be willing to unpleasant things. What he is talking about are things such as being very patient and folding most hands, which in his view, is counter to human nature. For example, if Doyle Brunson was concerned about maximizing his profit at all times, he wouldn't have played 10-2 offsuit on the 1st day of the 2003 WSOP. He played it for nostalgic reasons, not for profit reasons, which Shoonmaker says is a mistake. And other things, such as, traveling across the country to Las Vegas and NOT playing poker because you can't find a game in which you are a huge favorite. I don't know of anyone who would do this. Also, if you were really concerned about maximizing profits, when you get to vegas, you would go to EVERY card room to check out each and every game, then decide in which game you have the best expected value, and then only play that game. But who is willing to do this? Those are the types of things he's talking about. Very few people have the discipline (including pro's) to always consider money and profit first, when deciding where and how to play. So, what Shoonmaker is saying is, that most of us are more satisfied by playing a game in which we feel comfortable, rather than playing in a game where we feel uncomfortable, but have a slightly bigger expectation. Where as, if we REALLY were concered about maximizing profits, we would play in the uncomforatble situations, or not play at all in other situations. His theory is adapted for a sports theory which states that the really top athletes are willing to do the uncomforatable things no one will. I think he has some really good points and is right about alot of things. I also think that no one can live up to his ideal. Mark | ||
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