|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 2/13/2012 3:10:31 PM PACIFIC |
 Might move up to 10-20, OUTLAW, 18. Oct 2003 01:55 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I want to become a really good player and feel that I am not learning anything from the 5-10 w/ kill game that I normally play. There is very little that you can learn from opponents who play worse than you. The problem is that I am not even a winner in the 5-10 that ive been playing for a year now even though I am always one of the top three players at the table. First thing I do when I sit down is look at the competition. Heres the usual lineup (since the WPT)...1-2 players who have absolutley no idea (why not try the smaller limits first), 3 bad players, 2 OK players, and the rest of us actually know how to play. While this sounds juicy 3-5 schoolers every hand makes for a difficult game. I play to become good (improve my game) and for money. Well im not making any money and im not learning much from Mr. Runner Runner straight draw with undercards...GRRR. So do you expirienced players think I should try the bigger game? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Might move up to 10-20, modestmice, 18. Oct 2003 02:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 18. Oct 2003 01:55 OUTLAW wrote: > I want to become a really good player and feel that I am not learning anything > from the 5-10 w/ kill game that I normally play. There is very little that you > can learn from opponents who play worse than you. > The problem is that I am not even a winner in the 5-10 that ive been playing > for a year now even though I am always one of the top three players at the > table. First thing I do when I sit down is look at the competition. Heres the > usual lineup (since the WPT)...1-2 players who have absolutley no idea (why not > try the smaller limits first), 3 bad players, 2 OK players, and the rest of us > actually know how to play. While this sounds juicy 3-5 schoolers every hand > makes for a difficult game. > I play to become good (improve my game) and for money. Well im not making any > money and im not learning much from Mr. Runner Runner straight draw with > undercards...GRRR. So do you expirienced players think I should try the bigger > game? imo, you shouldnt move up unless you can beat the limit you are in, among other important factors. i think its natural to be impatient though, thats my biggest weakness. but moving up will not fix anything, it will make it worse. ------------------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Might move up to 10-20, PairTheBoard, 18. Oct 2003 03:40 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The lush 5-10 game you describe should be very beatable and very profitable. You might run bad for as much as a month or two and have trouble showing much profit, but a year is a little long to blame on a bad run. If you are not beating the game you should be asking yourself, why? Am I playing tight enough before the flop? Am I playing too many speculative hands pre-flop? Am I folding enough when passive players hit their draws and bet./raise? Am I calling down enough when agressive players bet their draws through the river? Am I only chasing with premium draws where I'm getting sufficient pot/implied odds? Do I get check raises in when opportunities appear? Do I go for check raises too much and give free cards? Am I letting agressive opponents manipulate me? Am I bluffing too much? Am I missing those rare opportunities to make good bluffs? Am I getting in enough value bets on the river? Am I betting for value too much and getting check raised to death? Am I accurate in estimating the liklihood of my having the best hand at the moment? Am I trying to put on Acts and getting read like a book? Do I put my chips in the same way every time? Do I show a reaction to the cards and my opponent's moves? Am I studying my opponents and picking up tells on them? Am I getting manipulated by the clever mixture of tells some con artists throw off? If you are not beating the 5-10 game you're in it's probably because you have not yet found your solution to some of these questions. In other words, you have leaks in your game. Those leaks will be unmercifully exploited at a higher limit and if you can't answer these questions now you are unlikely to answer them where the play is even more confusing. Rather than move up in limits your better bet would be to move DOWN maybe to a softer 3-6 game. I am beating the 5-10 games I play in but I still regularly move down to 3-6 games just to help me with my feel for the cards. In the softer game it feels suprising how often no one seems to have much. The same cards are being dealt but at the higher limit someone always seems to have something worth raising with pre-flop and betting post-flop. After some play at 3-6 I have a better feel for the fos factor going on in the 5-10 game. A move down in limits temporarily might restore your feel for the cards as well as allow you to make some money. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Might move up to 10-20, OUTLAW, 18. Oct 2003 07:54 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Thanks guys, PairTheBoard- those are great all great questions that I should be asking myself. I do feel that I can answer MOST of those questions in a positive way so I think I'll hold off on moving up until I become totally solid in ALL areas of low limit play. Thanks for your suggestions...I'll keep your post to review after my next handful of sessions. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Might move up to 10-20, Mark, 18. Oct 2003 08:22 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi Outlaw I think one of the biggest differences in my game now and when i was losing at the 5-10, is my pre flop and flop play. Briar and Ciaffone's Middle LImit Hold'em was the best book for helping me with this. They showed me when to draw and when to fold. They also helped alot with when to be aggressive. I can now say (with proof) that I am really beating any $5-10 game i play. But I when i was losing, i used to still think i was one of the better players in the game (like you). While it is possible that you have more "poker knowledge" than your opponents, you are not using it correctly for your game. You must make many adjustments to what the literature says when you are in a loose passive game. A couple of the most obvious are not drawing to str8s when a 2 flush is on board and not drawing to a flush when the board pairs, unless you have a hHUGE overlay. Over cards without other draws are useless in your game, and so are idiot end str8s and single card draws. (of course this all changes when you get heads up) A fairly profitable play is to know who you can value bet the river against. ( this could mean 1 BB per hour difference in your bankroll). You are in the exact spot I was in ( and everyone who is learning will go through). You are not beating the game unless your bankroll says so. Sports teams don't win because they feel smarter even when the score is against them. Moving up would probably be disasterous. Your opponnents play won't dramatically improve (if at all). While you're on your way to learning winning play, you're not there yet. I know its frustrating and tempting to move up, but you shouldn't. Buy some more books and keep learning. Mark | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Might move up to 10-20, noiseboy, 23. Oct 2003 10:28 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| What's the rake/drop time like? It may be that you are beating the players but not the house. Try to sit down and figure out where the money is going, if the rake is too high, try to find a better game, maybe at an entirely different casino. Online casinos have cheaper rake and you don't have to toke, so it might be a better option. Don't move up to 10/20 until you are sure you are beating 5/10. For loose games, you might want to check out Gary Carson's book. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Might move up to 10-20, happy J, 27. Oct 2003 04:56 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I don’t know how many hours u have played in a year but I will assume you are talking at least 300(I log a lot more than that). If you are playing in a loose game then you might not be evaluating your hands correctly. When the pot is large and muilt way it is not who has the best hand on the flop but the best draw, which goes home the winner. And example of this is if you have the nut draw and there are 5 players in the pot u are no longer raising for free cards or dissipative purpose as u would in a tight aggressive game, but simply raising for value and should be happily capping post flop. The odds of making your hand vs. what the table is putting in the pot are what matter. When the game is loose hold’em changes from the top pair best kicker style, to a draw game. I a loose game quickly shifting between draw style hold’em (5+ players, some say 4+ but I disagree) to top pair best kicker (4 or less). When you find your self with top pair best kicker in a loose game you got to risk free cards for a check raise to thin things out. Remember your not competing with there hands individually but all together, even if all 5 players have an avg of 4 outs that’s still 20(yes I know some cards will be outs for more than one player but the avg number of out will be much higher sometimes as well) cards in the deck that u don’t what to see. Now u maybe doing this and are just having a bad run but it is extremely unlikely. P.S. I mostly wrote this to help crystallized some of my own thinking on the subject. Maybe it will help you as well. P.S.S if you can’t crack a game like you describe after a year, then you haven’t learned what u need to know from 5-10. Poker is a game of the bottom line and your skill is shown by your win rate, not your study habits. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network | Find Vancouver Businesses |
|