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Server Time: 12/2/2008 12:12:55 AM PACIFIC |
 A-K in the Big Blind, Tom Mc Cabe, 16. Oct 2003 08:38 | ||
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| I copied and pasted a post at another forum that is being ridiculed. Could someone explain where my logic is off? Whenever I talk about premium pocket cards the majority seem to go to to this automatic raise stuff. Let's get our pens out and do a little math (This probably should be in the strategy forum but the Zoo is home). Limit Hold'em. Let's say you have A-K in the BB. An average of 6 see the flop and an average of 4 see the river. We are going to compare $$$$ in the pot (the advantages of variance and deception when just calling will be discarded along with the ability to out play opponents after the flop, just math here) Pre-flop raise: 1 BB per player (2 SB) x 6 players= 6 Big Bets Turn raise,check/raise: 2 BB per player x 4 players= 8 Big Bets Icing on the Cake Do we also save money if we get a terrible flop and turn and know our hand is beat? I believe that = 1 SB saved. Is it easier to muck to a bad flop? Does it set up future drawing hands when we want to see the river for free and everyone checks for fear of your image as a check/raiser? If you win one extra out of 50 because you drew a winner that you otherwise would have folded that is profit. Bottom line IMO If you automatically raise strong pockets pre-flop every time, then you have a leak in you game. | ||
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| Re: A-K in the Big Blind, Roy Cooke, 16. Oct 2003 08:42 | ||
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| Hi Tom I agree with your thoughts....One I would like to add is the fact that 6 people see the flop has devalued AK off-suit significantly. That hands plays MUCH better in situations where one pair is likely to win the pot. Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 16. Oct 2003 08:38 Tom Mc Cabe wrote: > I copied and pasted a post at another forum that is being ridiculed. Could > someone explain where my logic is off? > > Whenever I talk about premium pocket cards the majority seem to go to to this > automatic raise stuff. Let's get our pens out and do a little math (This > probably should be in the strategy forum but the Zoo is home). > > Limit Hold'em. Let's say you have A-K in the BB. An average of 6 see the flop > and an average of 4 see the river. We are going to compare $$$$ in the pot (the > advantages of variance and deception when just calling will be discarded along > with the ability to out play opponents after the flop, just math here) > > Pre-flop raise: 1 BB per player (2 SB) x 6 players= 6 Big Bets > Turn raise,check/raise: 2 BB per player x 4 players= 8 Big Bets > > Icing on the Cake > > Do we also save money if we get a terrible flop and turn and know our hand is > beat? I believe that = 1 SB saved. Is it easier to muck to a bad flop? > > Does it set up future drawing hands when we want to see the river for free and > everyone checks for fear of your image as a check/raiser? If you win one extra > out of 50 because you drew a winner that you otherwise would have folded that is > profit. > > Bottom line IMO > > If you automatically raise strong pockets pre-flop every time, then you have a > leak in you game. > | ||
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| Re: A-K in the Big Blind, Tom Mc Cabe, 16. Oct 2003 08:52 | ||
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| Mr. Cooke, Doesn't that strengthen just checking in the Big Blind as the raise won't shorten the field? on 16. Oct 2003 08:42 Roy Cooke wrote: > Hi Tom > > I agree with your thoughts....One I would like to add is the fact that 6 people see > the flop has devalued AK off-suit significantly. That hands plays MUCH better in > situations where one pair is likely to win the pot. > > Life is Good :-) > Roy Cooke > > on 16. Oct 2003 08:38 Tom Mc Cabe wrote: > > I copied and pasted a post at another forum that is being ridiculed. Could > > someone explain where my logic is off? > > > > Whenever I talk about premium pocket cards the majority seem to go to to this > > automatic raise stuff. Let's get our pens out and do a little math (This > > probably should be in the strategy forum but the Zoo is home). > > > > Limit Hold'em. Let's say you have A-K in the BB. An average of 6 see the flop > > and an average of 4 see the river. We are going to compare $$$$ in the pot (the > > advantages of variance and deception when just calling will be discarded along > > with the ability to out play opponents after the flop, just math here) > > > > Pre-flop raise: 1 BB per player (2 SB) x 6 players= 6 Big Bets > > Turn raise,check/raise: 2 BB per player x 4 players= 8 Big Bets > > > > Icing on the Cake > > > > Do we also save money if we get a terrible flop and turn and know our hand is > > beat? I believe that = 1 SB saved. Is it easier to muck to a bad flop? > > > > Does it set up future drawing hands when we want to see the river for free and > > everyone checks for fear of your image as a check/raiser? If you win one extra > > out of 50 because you drew a winner that you otherwise would have folded that is > > > profit. > > > > Bottom line IMO > > > > If you automatically raise strong pockets pre-flop every time, then you have a > > leak in you game. > > "Guy who lives in glass house should get dressed in basement. | ||
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| Re: A-K in the Big Blind, Mark Barnett II, 16. Oct 2003 09:41 | ||
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| this question is probably THE definition of it depends, there are so many variables that can be changed that might swing your decision one way or the other that its almost impossible to say whats better. i think the reason most people would say raise is because its the better of the 2 goods in most situations *instead of lesser of 2 evils*, im not sure either play is ever bad just one might not be maximizing EV in that situation. this is why info gained about opponents can be so important and why poker is so complex, your always making judgement calls based on partial information | ||
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| Re: A-K in the Big Blind, shorn, 16. Oct 2003 09:13 | ||
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| I will rarely raise AK from the BB against more than 3 opponents. The exception might be in a tight game where a pre-flop raise and a flop bet can get others to fold to a rag or marginal flop. Otherwise, you are just offering implied odds to weaker hands to chase later on when all you really have is a drawing hand. If it were AKs, then it might change the story a bit. This is a great example of why poker is a situational game and hard and fast rules about how to play "Group 1" hands break down in real game situations. There are too many players out ther who treat AKo as strong as AA, KK, and QQ. | ||
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| Re: A-K in the Big Blind, KJo, 16. Oct 2003 09:15 | ||
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| One thing to consider that puts a hole in the logic is that if 4 people are calling a raise on the turn, you're in trouble. This is why it's often better to get more money up front before peoples' hands get better defined. You can't make it a math only question, there are far too many variables, and the "ideal" situation you're basing your math on doesn't present itself all that often. You're right, there are no "automatic" raises (there isn't an automatic anything in poker, except for the automatic A on the flop when I have KK), as Roy would say everything is a situation. Eli on 16. Oct 2003 08:38 Tom Mc Cabe wrote: > I copied and pasted a post at another forum that is being ridiculed. Could > someone explain where my logic is off? > > Whenever I talk about premium pocket cards the majority seem to go to to this > automatic raise stuff. Let's get our pens out and do a little math (This > probably should be in the strategy forum but the Zoo is home). > > Limit Hold'em. Let's say you have A-K in the BB. An average of 6 see the flop > and an average of 4 see the river. We are going to compare $$$$ in the pot (the > advantages of variance and deception when just calling will be discarded along > with the ability to out play opponents after the flop, just math here) > > Pre-flop raise: 1 BB per player (2 SB) x 6 players= 6 Big Bets > Turn raise,check/raise: 2 BB per player x 4 players= 8 Big Bets > > Icing on the Cake > > Do we also save money if we get a terrible flop and turn and know our hand is > beat? I believe that = 1 SB saved. Is it easier to muck to a bad flop? > > Does it set up future drawing hands when we want to see the river for free and > everyone checks for fear of your image as a check/raiser? If you win one extra > out of 50 because you drew a winner that you otherwise would have folded that is > profit. > > Bottom line IMO > > If you automatically raise strong pockets pre-flop every time, then you have a > leak in you game. > | ||
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| Re: A-K in the Big Blind, Tom Mc Cabe, 16. Oct 2003 09:20 | ||
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| Eli, Great point. I should have mentioned another important fact. Party Poker $3-$6. Land of the calling stations, even check-raises. on 16. Oct 2003 09:15 KJo wrote: > One thing to consider that puts a hole in the logic is that if 4 people are calling a > raise on the turn, you're in trouble. This is why it's often better to get more > money up front before peoples' hands get better defined. > > You can't make it a math only question, there are far too many variables, and the > "ideal" situation you're basing your math on doesn't present itself all that often. > > You're right, there are no "automatic" raises (there isn't an automatic anything in > poker, except for the automatic A on the flop when I have KK), as Roy would say > everything is a situation. > > Eli > > | ||
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| Re: A-K in the Big Blind, PairTheBoard, 16. Oct 2003 11:07 | ||
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| I don't mind playing AKo for two bets preflop against up to 4 opponents and will raise to make it so. I figure I'm getting 4-1 odds on my two bets with a 2-1 shot to connect with the flop. If I do connect I have good chances of winning and collecting more bets post flop. If I don't connect my chances are slim to none and will often fold to a bet on the flop. Against 1 or 2 opponents I will often carry on after missing the flop if it appears my opponents may have missed as well. With 5 or more opponents I'm feeling like the pot is big enough with one bet preflop, although I might still raise if I feel like gambling. But with 5 or more opponents I want the pot small enough so that If I do connect, a bet on the flop has the strength to thin the field, which becomes top priority for a top top holding. | ||
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| Re: A-K in the Big Blind, noiseboy, 16. Oct 2003 15:28 | ||
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| I don't know if it's a leak really. The fact is that if you have four people already in for a bet, you know they are going to call raises. I understand the argument that goes, "why should you raise here with a drawing proposition when so often you will have to give up on the flop with that many opponents?" This argument isn't necessarily wrong when you put in the fact that from the SB you will have crappy position for all betting rounds. However, my argument for raising with the AK goes like this, sure it's true you will only hit the flop with AK about a third of the time, but those times that you do hit the flop, you will win pots big enough to make up for those times you lost two small bets instead of one when you had to give up the hand. In addition, a least one or two of those limpers, if not all of them have worse holdings than you and are making a mistake to get involved if they had known you would raise. You have a hand worth two small bets, or even three, to see a flop, if they don't have a hand worth it, they are making a mistake from which you profit. One additional advantage of raising, which can also be frustrating when they school up and catch you, is that they will be more willing to call bets postflop when you do catch an A or K if you have already started to build a big pot. There is another reason some people just prefer to call with AK multiway from the SB, and that's deception. Pretty much raising from the SB shouts "good hand"; however, it doesn't necessarily mean "monster hand". I don't really have a counter to the deception argument, I think it might be good to vary your play, and sometimes just call, and maybe even raise with lesser holdings when you have the odds to do so. | ||
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