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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:50:34 PM PACIFIC |
 Trying out things I've read., Ingise_Eesti, 15. Oct 2003 20:51 | ||
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| About a week ago I posted on this site asking any of you out there if you could reccomend some good books for me to read as I've been playing for 4 months in online SNGs and it's taken me this long to realize just how bad I am. Only got one response and that was from Lou Krieger strangely reccomending one of his own books :). I then logged on to amazon and purcased his book ("Poker for dummies") as well as another by Lou (If you're reading this Lou I hope you think of me next time you're at the bank) as well as 7 others (i'm really bad). After vowing not to play a single hand until I'd read, re-read, re-read again, brushed up on vital chapters and re-read again all 9 books I succumbed today and gave it a whirl after reading 4 of the books cover-to-cover. The purpose of this post is to explain what I tried, what other people think of it and maybe get some feedback from others who have read the same book/books. Who knows? Mybe this could become a regular thing and I could post this type of message with each new method/strategy that I try out. I have only been given support, encouragement and above all helpful advice by people responding to my previous posts on this site but this may change after this one because believe me it's gonna be long!!!! Hopefully I won't bore you to death so here goes... Let me start by saying that the only form of poker I have ever played up until today was $5 and $10 online NLHE SNGs and most of the books that i recently purchased seem to talk about limit HE in much greater detail than they do NL so I decided that I should have a shot at playing that kind of game. I'm not completely stupid though, well, some who know me well would beg to differ ;) so I decided not risk any money and logged onto PS for a long session of play money 10/20 limit hold'em. I decided to try and implement Phil Hellmuth Jr.'s beginner's strategy for limit hold'em as outlined in his book,"Play poker like the pros" as this seemed to be the easiest to comprehend and apply in a game situation. This basic strategy involves you playing only the top ten hands in Phil's own personal hand-ranking list as is set down in his book and playing them aggressively.In fact, he advocates super-tight agressive play at all times but that's for another post now back to this strategy. I was wondering what you guys thought of this, can this be profitable in the long run? Or do you think that these starting hand requirements are too much and you're just gonna get eaten away by the blinds? I mean playing only 10 (actually I think it is 12 as Phil doesn't state whether or not 2 of these hands should be played suited or unsuited so i'm assuming both) out of 169 possible starting hand combinations is 7% therefore over 100 hands at a full table(and full table=less blinds) at 10/20 you'll be paying out 150 in blinds and only playing on average 7 hands (excluding free cards in the BB). Thoughts please....... Phil then advocates raising pre-flop most of the time when you've been dealt one of these starting hands so that you can build the pot and thus maximise your payout should you go on to win the pot. He then goes on to discuss how to play the flop, something which didn't come off for me during this mammoth 5 hour online session. The great flops and bad flops I can already deal with (stuff like 2 overcards to your pair (Note: a lot of Phil's top ten are pocket pairs). Phil recomends on raising or leading out the betting when you've just seen a marginal flop to try and gain information on what the other players may hold.Whilst all the time considering what kind of player they are.Of the 17 flops I saw from a total of 232 hands I flopped what I'd class as a marginal hand on 10 occasions, good/great flops 4 times and bad/terrible flops 3 times. Whilst playing these Marginal hands the way Phil describes I managed to take one pot with second pair (a pocket pair with one overcard on board) was called or re-raised by at least 2 opponents on 8 occasions and was re-raised by one opponent with everybody else folding on one occasion. i.e. on only one occassion was there a definate positive outcome to using this strategy on the flop. I know that 10 hands is absolutely nothing to go on but what do you guys think? is this a good strategy on the flop? After all I was only playing for play money and my opponents were calling raises with absolutely anything at times so it was always going to be difficult to gain information in this way. To make it even harder it was online!!! No clues from body language/tells (even if I did know how to recognize them). Any thoughts on any of the above plus some quick responses on the following questions would be greatly appreciated At times whilst playing at this table the % of callers seeing the flop was at a mighty 81%. Is this a good thing or not? From what I've been reading it seems as though the more callers/hand the better but is this always true? If everyone is truly awful at the table and sometimes there were showdons 5 or 6 handed at this table can you ever be confident of holding the best hand?(unless of course it's the nuts) Yes, great pot odds at the end very often but absolutely impossible o read people. A combination of trying to play super-tight and by rigid starting hand requirements for the first time ever (although i do usually play quite tight) and seeing peole play in this crazy fashion made me think of another question. Are there any sites out there where it's possible to play for free whilst I'm learning this new game that isn't full of 8 or 9 complete maniacs? and am i likely to see as many maniacs playing tiny real money stakes online ($1-$2) . 3 or 4 I could deal with but a whole table full of them was hard to take and made it even harder to stick to these very strict starting hand requirements. I'll just finish this off now by thanking you for your patience if you've got this far, telling you that Phil states in his book that this strategy will only make you a winner in SOME games whatever that means and by telling you that I was down 30 chips (1.5 big bets over 5 hours and 232 hands). | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., modestmice, 15. Oct 2003 21:07 | ||
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| on 15. Oct 2003 20:51 Ingise_Eesti wrote: > About a week ago I posted on this site asking any of you out there if you could > reccomend some good books for me to read as I've been playing for 4 months in > online SNGs and it's taken me this long to realize just how bad I am. Only got > one response and that was from Lou Krieger strangely reccomending one of his own > books :). I then logged on to amazon and purcased his book ("Poker for dummies") > as well as another by Lou (If you're reading this Lou I hope you think of me > next time you're at the bank) as well as 7 others (i'm really bad). After vowing > not to play a single hand until I'd read, re-read, re-read again, brushed up on > vital chapters and re-read again all 9 books I succumbed today and gave it a > whirl after reading 4 of the books cover-to-cover. The purpose of this post is > to explain what I tried, what other people think of it and maybe get some > feedback from others who have read the same book/books. Who knows? Mybe this > could become a regular thing and I could post this type of message with each new > method/strategy that I try out. I have only been given support, encouragement > and above all helpful advice by people responding to my previous posts on this > site but this may change after this one because believe me it's gonna be > long!!!! Hopefully I won't bore you to death so here goes... > Let me start by saying that the only form of poker I have ever played up until > today was $5 and $10 online NLHE SNGs and most of the books that i recently > purchased seem to talk about limit HE in much greater detail than they do NL so > I decided that I should have a shot at playing that kind of game. I'm not > completely stupid though, well, some who know me well would beg to differ ;) so > I decided not risk any money and logged onto PS for a long session of play money > 10/20 limit hold'em. I decided to try and implement Phil Hellmuth Jr.'s > beginner's strategy for limit hold'em as outlined in his book,"Play poker like > the pros" as this seemed to be the easiest to comprehend and apply in a game > situation. This basic strategy involves you playing only the top ten hands in > Phil's own personal hand-ranking list as is set down in his book and playing > them aggressively.In fact, he advocates super-tight agressive play at all times > but that's for another post now back to this strategy. I was wondering what you > guys thought of this, can this be profitable in the long run? Or do you think > that these starting hand requirements are too much and you're just gonna get > eaten away by the blinds? I mean playing only 10 (actually I think it is 12 as > Phil doesn't state whether or not 2 of these hands should be played suited or > unsuited so i'm assuming both) out of 169 possible starting hand combinations is > 7% therefore over 100 hands at a full table(and full table=less blinds) at 10/20 > you'll be paying out 150 in blinds and only playing on average 7 hands > (excluding free cards in the BB). Thoughts please....... > Phil then advocates raising pre-flop most of the time when you've been dealt > one of these starting hands so that you can build the pot and thus maximise your > payout should you go on to win the pot. He then goes on to discuss how to play > the flop, something which didn't come off for me during this mammoth 5 hour > online session. The great flops and bad flops I can already deal with (stuff > like 2 overcards to your pair (Note: a lot of Phil's top ten are pocket pairs). > Phil recomends on raising or leading out the betting when you've just seen a > marginal flop to try and gain information on what the other players may > hold.Whilst all the time considering what kind of player they are.Of the 17 > flops I saw from a total of 232 hands I flopped what I'd class as a marginal > hand on 10 occasions, good/great flops 4 times and bad/terrible flops 3 times. > Whilst playing these Marginal hands the way Phil describes I managed to take one > pot with second pair (a pocket pair with one overcard on board) was called or > re-raised by at least 2 opponents on 8 occasions and was re-raised by one > opponent with everybody else folding on one occasion. i.e. on only one occassion > was there a definate positive outcome to using this strategy on the flop. I know > that 10 hands is absolutely nothing to go on but what do you guys think? is this > a good strategy on the flop? After all I was only playing for play money and my > opponents were calling raises with absolutely anything at times so it was always > going to be difficult to gain information in this way. To make it even harder it > was online!!! No clues from body language/tells (even if I did know how to > recognize them). > > Any thoughts on any of the above plus some quick responses on the following > questions would be greatly appreciated > > At times whilst playing at this table the % of callers seeing the flop was at a > mighty 81%. Is this a good thing or not? From what I've been reading it seems as > though the more callers/hand the better but is this always true? If everyone is > truly awful at the table and sometimes there were showdons 5 or 6 handed at this > table can you ever be confident of holding the best hand?(unless of course it's > the nuts) Yes, great pot odds at the end very often but absolutely impossible o > read people. > > A combination of trying to play super-tight and by rigid starting hand > requirements for the first time ever (although i do usually play quite tight) > and seeing peole play in this crazy fashion made me think of another question. > Are there any sites out there where it's possible to play for free whilst I'm > learning this new game that isn't full of 8 or 9 complete maniacs? and am i > likely to see as many maniacs playing tiny real money stakes online ($1-$2) . 3 > or 4 I could deal with but a whole table full of them was hard to take and made > it even harder to stick to these very strict starting hand requirements. > > I'll just finish this off now by thanking you for your patience if you've got > this far, telling you that Phil states in his book that this strategy will only > make you a winner in SOME games whatever that means and by telling you that I > was down 30 chips (1.5 big bets over 5 hours and 232 hands). hello, i love the amount of brain power you are using to become a better player, but there is nearly no value in using strategies on play chip tables. i would suggest the lowest limits in real money, for a good amount of time, before drawing any conclusions about anything | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., rdale, 16. Oct 2003 00:13 | ||
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| You might try the single table tournaments play $ at the higher levels. The game generally changes textures from loose passive or loose aggressive to tighter as the game moves on and the blinds get bigger. It gives you a good chance to practice at a closer to real money game than the play ring games. Note when you play real money single table, in general it will be much tighter than the play money from the gate. | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., mattd, 16. Oct 2003 00:41 | ||
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| I purchased the wilson TTH software. I think the computer players you compete against will give you better practice than the fake money tables..they play like it's real money(and you don't even risk any).. | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., ReMMy, 16. Oct 2003 07:56 | ||
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| Phil's descriptions of different types of players, where you want to sit in relation to them etc etc is valuable. However in LL online holdem the games change players often and none of them ever pay enough attention to recognize your style of play. That being said, Phil's strategy will not make you a winner in very low limit online holdem, or at least not much of a winner. His starting hand requirements are waaaayyyy to strict. You need to take advantage of all the people who have absolutely no idea and will call you down to the river w/ low pair. My suggestion is to go play .25/.50 and stick to Ax suited, Pocket pairs. AK, KQ, QJs, J10s, AQ, AJs, maybe some other decent hands. Loosen up your starting requirements on unraised pots when you are closer to the button and tighten up much much more when you are under the gun. You're not gonna lose a lot of money in these games while you mess around w/ varying strategies. Lastly, as you read all these books, try to focus on all the concepts they discuss more than looking for a set in stone strategy. You need to understand what you're doing and why, eventually you'll develop your own strategy that works best for you and be able to change it on they fly. | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., shorn, 16. Oct 2003 08:05 | ||
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| My advice is twofold: Buy and read Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones. This is by far the best text for the LL game. Second, stop playing play money tables and play very low stakes real live games. The play tables are the equivalent of watching a roller coaster on TV and actually riding one. They are NOTHING like the real thing. One good thing though is your dedication to getting better. There is no better road to being a winning player than constantly challenging your thoughts and beliefs about what is right/wrong and what works. Good luck. Steve | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., Phish, 16. Oct 2003 08:43 | ||
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| Buy the Jones book and toss aside the Hellmuth book. And you have to play for real money. Play money is not real poker. | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., Candide, 16. Oct 2003 09:40 | ||
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| I've read Phil's book (first actually) and then Super systems from Doyle Brunson and Sklansky/Malmuths Advanced holdem book. Phil's book cost me a bit at low limit. I stepped back and re read super systems, and found this forum which I have read religiously, and now I'm making money almost every time I play. Phil's book is a decent foundation to build from, but in online, low limit play, it doesn't seem to help a whole lot, IMO. Also, rather than go cover to cover, I have focused on holdem sections. Later I intend to go back, but for now I want to get good, if not great, at one game. I plan on reading LL holdem by jones next, as well as the middle limit holdem book (forget who it is by). I've seen Jones book recommended a LOT, as well as the MLHE one. | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., Mark, 16. Oct 2003 10:07 | ||
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| Like everyone else said, don't bother with the play money tables, you won't learn much useful. Also, i think that it is a good idea to play while reading your library. I found that i would understand, learn, or adapt one new concept per seesion while reading. If you wait til after you've read 8 books before you try to apply any of the knowledge, you will probably try to apply everything at once and get complete confused. I would recommend playing about 5 sessions (even if they are only 30 min sessions) while reading each book. During each of those sessions focus on only one new concept you've read about and really understand. This way, you will start to understand each concept as it applies to the game. As you move on and read more books, you will find that you keep encountering the same topics, and will get more out of each book. As for Phil's book, it is not very good for loose passive games with many calling stations, like you'll encounter at low-limit online games. His stradegy relies on the fact that his opponents have the ability to fold, while most micro/low-limit players can't. Lee Jones Winning Low Limit Hold'em is good, so are Lou's books Roy Cooke's Real Poker Briar' and Ciaffone's Middle Limit Hold'em ( a tiny bit advanced but will really help with a beginer's game if thoroughly understood) Anything from Sklansky and/or Mallmuth I bought Poker for Dummies when i was starting out, and i now realize it was a waste of money. It is too vague and general, and doesn't provide any information you wouldn't find in any other good poker book. Be careful, there are alot of books out there that are garbage. Most from the above authors and a few others are really good. You might want to ask around (or here) about future purchases. You're well on the right path to winning. mark | ||
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| Re: Trying out things I've read., gary ford, 18. Oct 2003 10:03 | ||
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| on 16. Oct 2003 10:07 Mark wrote: > Like everyone else said, don't bother with the play money tables, you won't learn > much useful. > > Also, i think that it is a good idea to play while reading your library. I found > that i would understand, learn, or adapt one new concept per seesion while reading. > If you wait til after you've read 8 books before you try to apply any of the > knowledge, you will probably try to apply everything at once and get complete > confused. > > I would recommend playing about 5 sessions (even if they are only 30 min sessions) > while reading each book. During each of those sessions focus on only one new concept > you've read about and really understand. This way, you will start to understand each > concept as it applies to the game. As you move on and read more books, you will find > that you keep encountering the same topics, and will get more out of each book. > > As for Phil's book, it is not very good for loose passive games with many calling > stations, like you'll encounter at low-limit online games. His stradegy relies on > the fact that his opponents have the ability to fold, while most micro/low-limit > players can't. > > Lee Jones Winning Low Limit Hold'em is good, so are > Lou's books > Roy Cooke's Real Poker > Briar' and Ciaffone's Middle Limit Hold'em ( a tiny bit advanced but will really > help with a beginer's game if thoroughly understood) > Anything from Sklansky and/or Mallmuth > > I bought Poker for Dummies when i was starting out, and i now realize it was a waste > of money. It is too vague and general, and doesn't provide any information you > wouldn't find in any other good poker book. > > Be careful, there are alot of books out there that are garbage. Most from the above > authors and a few others are really good. > > You might want to ask around (or here) about future purchases. You're well on the > right path to winning. good advice. it is very hard to achieve quantum leaps in learning--thats why its called a learning curve, not a learning leap. I disagree with skipping the play money tables, although Wilson is a better alternative. In the beginning.the oblect is not to win or lose but to learn. The system Mark suggests will help you convert book principles into real game action. The next step can be either LL or SNGs. The advantage of SNGs is limited liability ( you can only lose $5 or $10) and the action changes during the course of the tournament from loose to tight and again to heads up strategy once you reach the top 4 with only the top 3 paying> You have made an excellent start--just remember your goal is to learn with winning or losing secondary. > mark | ||
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