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An Interesting Hand...Badly Played (long post), mkpoker, 14. Oct 2003 21:45
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Looking over this printout of a 5/10 UB hand, I'm almost embarassed to post. When I played it, I thought MAYBE I made 1 mistake. Now, I can count at least four. What was I thinking?

But take a look at what was an interesting hand...badly played. Comment if you like, but don't repeat my mistakes (unless you're playing against me, of course :)

I'm at a tough table. So tough, that I'm planning to leave as soon as it's my turn to post the BB. Good agressive players (except for 2). The player to my right was especially solid and was really cleaning up.

From the cutoff, I'm dealt Js9s. UTG folds, EP raises. There are four callers to me. With the promise of good odds for this hand, I call. Button and blinds call also and we take the flop 8-handed...so far so good.

The flop comes 2d9d3h, a rag-flop that gives me top pair, with a moderate kicker. I haven't flopped the flush or straight draw I had hoped for, but I might just be ahead anyway!

There are 5 checks to the solid player on my right, who bets. This disheartens me, because I figure he must have something. I doubt he'd bluff into an 8-person field. Even though I figure there's a chance I'm behind, I raise, hoping to isolate and drive out weak draws. This works, as all but one MP player fold (including the pre-flop raiser).

The turn is Tc [Board now 2d9d3hTc]. I'm in position and both players check to me. I'm surprised the player on my right checked. It was tough to put him on a hand, but I figured a low overpair (like TT or JJ) was most likely. But he would/should have bet these hands on the turn, fearing the str8 draw and overcards. Now I think my original read was probably wrong. Maybe he bet the flop on overcards only, perhaps AJ or KQ. So I bet, trying to take the pot right there. The MP player calls and the solid player to my right check-raises. My heart sinks. His check-raise tells me I'm behind, but the pot is big, so I call. MP folds and we're heads up.

River is Jc [Board now 2d9d3hTcJc]. I've hit a miracle draw for 2-pair! I'm not crazy about the obvious straight draw now on the board, but I doubt my opponent has KQ, because he wouldn't have check-raised with just overcards and a gutshot. He bets out. I raise. He reraises. My heart sinks AGAIN. I make a crying call. He shows 33(!) for a set made on the flop.

Let's count up the mistakes here:

1. Not even thinking about a low pair as a possible holding for my opponent. I mean, DUH! Calling a raise from LP in a hand with many players is clearly the correct play for a low pocket pair. It never even crossed my mind.

2. Betting the turn. I knew my top pair middle-kicker wasn't a great hand and could be behind. But I was so worried about giving a free card with the 9T on the board, that I forgot...I needed a free card too! Instead, I bet and got raised, costing me an additional 2BB. In retrospect, this may have been the closest call of my mistakes. What do you think? I'm not sure my bet was a total blunder.

3. Calling the check raise. This was a blunder. I was getting (approximately) 15:1 on that bet. I figured I was behind, but I called because I had 5 outs, or about 9:1 to improve. BUT I forgot to consider that SO many of my outs were tainted. The jack created str8 potential and still wasn't good enough to beat any set! Really, I had between zero (if my opponent had JJ) and 2 outs (if my opponent held a low set). Clearly, I didn't have nearly the right odds to call. This was a terrible play. I hit my hand (to one of my supposed "outs" on the river)...and still lost.

4. Raising the river. What was I thinking! A solid player shows me non-stop aggression and bets out AGAIN on the river. Why do I raise? I dunno. Just a glutton for punishment, I guess. That was a 2BB mistake.

Sorry for the long post, but it's always helped me to look back at the big hands I've lost--especially when I've made mistakes that could have been avoided. I hope it was an interesting read.
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Re: An Interesting Hand...Badly Played (long post), ReMMy, 14. Oct 2003 22:58
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on 14. Oct 2003 21:45 mkpoker wrote:
> Looking over this printout of a 5/10 UB hand, I'm almost embarassed to post.
> When I played it, I thought MAYBE I made 1 mistake. Now, I can count at least
> four. What was I thinking?
>
> But take a look at what was an interesting hand...badly played. Comment if you
> like, but don't repeat my mistakes (unless you're playing against me, of course
> :)
>
> I'm at a tough table. So tough, that I'm planning to leave as soon as it's my
> turn to post the BB. Good agressive players (except for 2). The player to my
> right was especially solid and was really cleaning up.
>
> From the cutoff, I'm dealt Js9s. UTG folds, EP raises. There are four callers
> to me. With the promise of good odds for this hand, I call. Button and blinds
> call also and we take the flop 8-handed...so far so good.
>
> The flop comes 2d9d3h, a rag-flop that gives me top pair, with a moderate
> kicker. I haven't flopped the flush or straight draw I had hoped for, but I
> might just be ahead anyway!
>
> There are 5 checks to the solid player on my right, who bets. This disheartens
> me, because I figure he must have something. I doubt he'd bluff into an
> 8-person field. Even though I figure there's a chance I'm behind, I raise,
> hoping to isolate and drive out weak draws. This works, as all but one MP
> player fold (including the pre-flop raiser).
>
> The turn is Tc [Board now 2d9d3hTc]. I'm in position and both players check to
> me. I'm surprised the player on my right checked. It was tough to put him on a
> hand, but I figured a low overpair (like TT or JJ) was most likely. But he
> would/should have bet these hands on the turn, fearing the str8 draw and
> overcards. Now I think my original read was probably wrong. Maybe he bet the
> flop on overcards only, perhaps AJ or KQ. So I bet, trying to take the pot
> right there. The MP player calls and the solid player to my right check-raises.
> My heart sinks. His check-raise tells me I'm behind, but the pot is big, so I
> call. MP folds and we're heads up.

Up until this point it wasn't that bad. Right here I would have folded. You had a good read on your opponent as a very solid player. All possibility of overcards went out the window w/ his checkraise against 2 players. He knew one of you had at least a pair of 9's if not 2 pair, and didn't care....
>
> River is Jc [Board now 2d9d3hTcJc]. I've hit a miracle draw for 2-pair! I'm
> not crazy about the obvious straight draw now on the board, but I doubt my
> opponent has KQ, because he wouldn't have check-raised with just overcards and a
> gutshot. He bets out. I raise. He reraises. My heart sinks AGAIN. I make a
> crying call. He shows 33(!) for a set made on the flop.
You can't raise for value on the flop unless you're almost positive you have your opponent beat. When you raised the flop it was obvious you wanted to thin the field, hence he was able to rule out the possiblity of you having 99. You didn't reraise the turn so 1010 was out, and the possibility of JJ was pretty slim so your opponent was definately in a position to raise the river, you were definately not...

>
> Let's count up the mistakes here:
>
> 1. Not even thinking about a low pair as a possible holding for my opponent.
> I mean, DUH! Calling a raise from LP in a hand with many players is clearly the
> correct play for a low pocket pair. It never even crossed my mind.
>
> 2. Betting the turn. I knew my top pair middle-kicker wasn't a great hand and
> could be behind. But I was so worried about giving a free card with the 9T on
> the board, that I forgot...I needed a free card too! Instead, I bet and got
> raised, costing me an additional 2BB. In retrospect, this may have been the
> closest call of my mistakes. What do you think? I'm not sure my bet was a total
> blunder.
>
> 3. Calling the check raise. This was a blunder. I was getting
> (approximately) 15:1 on that bet. I figured I was behind, but I called because
> I had 5 outs, or about 9:1 to improve. BUT I forgot to consider that SO many of
> my outs were tainted. The jack created str8 potential and still wasn't good
> enough to beat any set! Really, I had between zero (if my opponent had JJ) and
> 2 outs (if my opponent held a low set). Clearly, I didn't have nearly the right
> odds to call. This was a terrible play. I hit my hand (to one of my supposed
> "outs" on the river)...and still lost.
>
> 4. Raising the river. What was I thinking! A solid player shows me non-stop
> aggression and bets out AGAIN on the river. Why do I raise? I dunno. Just a
> glutton for punishment, I guess. That was a 2BB mistake.
>
> Sorry for the long post, but it's always helped me to look back at the big
> hands I've lost--especially when I've made mistakes that could have been
> avoided. I hope it was an interesting read.
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Re: An Interesting Hand...Badly Played (long post), shorn, 15. Oct 2003 05:50
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At a tough table as you describe, I would fold this hand pre-flop. With 4 flat callers of a raise, there is no flop (other than 78T rainbow or JJ9) that you can play with any confidence. Someone could easily have flatcalled with AQ of your suit, so if the flush draw comes you can't be certain you will win. Also, if you flop just a str8 draw (say KT8), then you will only have 4 outs to a str8 you can be comfortable with. And, that str8 could be counterfeited if the board pairs.

All in all I think you avoid the rest of the mistakes by mucking this hand in a tough game. A loose passive game is another story.
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Re: An Interesting Hand...Badly Played (long post), Aisthesis, 24. Oct 2003 13:16
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My opinion: Depending on the size of the intial flop bet, I wonder if raising was a good idea. If he bet the minimum, I agree with your raise, but if he bet half the pot or more, I think calling would have been better.
I don't think your bet on the turn was a mistake at all. For the reasons you mentioned, I think you've got to do it. In light of what you said about the players, I think I would've just folded immediately to the check-raise. Objectively, one call MIGHT have been ok, but with a tight non-bluffer, if it was me, I would've called it quits immediately.
I can see why you bet the river, since on the surface it looks like a great improvement, but that was a clear mistake--easy to see in hindsight but something REALLY easy to do in practice.
I still think the two main mistakes were: 1) not considering the possibility of the low pair pocket, 2) not folding to the check-raise.
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