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Server Time: 10/6/2008 4:49:24 PM PACIFIC |
 playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 19:00 | ||
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| Hello, I want to see what you guys think about this hand, my thoughts follow the history: Getting Hand History Information... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hand #510058-4782 at AnnieDuke ($4/$8 Hold'em) Powered by UltimateBet Started at 14/Oct/03 21:38:41 steelerjay is at seat 0 with $57. The Vegan is at seat 1 with $128.75. sourlemur is at seat 2 with $80. doogie is at seat 3 with $184. noiseboy is at seat 4 with $441. lego is at seat 5 with $36.75. Johnny 53 is at seat 6 with $191. aces4hire is at seat 7 with $191.50. lefty1432 is at seat 8 with $132. Boz73 is at seat 9 with $171.50. The button is at seat 3. noiseboy posts the small blind of $1. lego posts the big blind of $2. sourlemur posts out of turn for $2. steelerjay: -- -- The Vegan: -- -- sourlemur: -- -- doogie: -- -- noiseboy: Jd 3d lego: -- -- Johnny 53: -- -- aces4hire: -- -- lefty1432: -- -- Boz73: -- -- Pre-flop: Johnny 53 folds. aces4hire folds. lefty1432 folds. Boz73 folds. steelerjay folds. The Vegan folds. sourlemur checks. doogie folds. noiseboy calls. lego checks. Flop (board: Jh Td 4c): noiseboy checks. lego checks. sourlemur bets $4. noiseboy raises to $8. lego folds. sourlemur calls. Turn (board: Jh Td 4c 8d): noiseboy bets $8. sourlemur calls. River (board: Jh Td 4c 8d Tc): noiseboy checks. sourlemur checks. Showdown: noiseboy shows Jd 3d. noiseboy has Jd Jh Td 8d Tc: two pair, jacks and tens. sourlemur mucks cards. (sourlemur has 8c 9s.) Hand #510058-4782 Summary: $1.50 is raked from a pot of $38. noiseboy wins $36.50 with two pair, jacks and tens. ---------------------------------------------------------------- OK, so J3s you ask?? I know it's complete trash, but this is a weirdo 4/8 table with only 1/2 blinds and it's only one more dollar to call. Normally, I would never play it, but I think the implied odds are there to go for a flush or two pair since the initial blinds are so small compared to later betting. Ok so whats with the check raise, you ask. Basically, I think the late position bettor might just be trying to pick up the pot and I want to find out if my J is any good. He just calls the raise, so I'm still not sure but have my fears that I might be losing. Anyway, I bet the turn because I've picked up a flush draw and figure it might be a good semibluff. The river I'm afraid to bet because I didn't improve, but will probably make a crying call if I'm bet into. That's about it. Thanks in advance for any comments. I'll start: J3s, what the hell kinda hand is that? | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 19:06 | ||
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| on 14. Oct 2003 19:00 noiseboy wrote: > Hello, > > I want to see what you guys think about this hand, my thoughts follow the > history: > > Getting Hand History Information... > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hand #510058-4782 at AnnieDuke ($4/$8 Hold'em) > Powered by UltimateBet > Started at 14/Oct/03 21:38:41 > > steelerjay is at seat 0 with $57. > The Vegan is at seat 1 with $128.75. > sourlemur is at seat 2 with $80. > doogie is at seat 3 with $184. > noiseboy is at seat 4 with $441. > lego is at seat 5 with $36.75. > Johnny 53 is at seat 6 with $191. > aces4hire is at seat 7 with $191.50. > lefty1432 is at seat 8 with $132. > Boz73 is at seat 9 with $171.50. > The button is at seat 3. > > noiseboy posts the small blind of $1. > lego posts the big blind of $2. > sourlemur posts out of turn for $2. > > steelerjay: -- -- > The Vegan: -- -- > sourlemur: -- -- > doogie: -- -- > noiseboy: Jd 3d > lego: -- -- > Johnny 53: -- -- > aces4hire: -- -- > lefty1432: -- -- > Boz73: -- -- > > Pre-flop: > > Johnny 53 folds. aces4hire folds. lefty1432 folds. > Boz73 folds. steelerjay folds. The Vegan folds. > sourlemur checks. doogie folds. noiseboy calls. > lego checks. > > Flop (board: Jh Td 4c): > > noiseboy checks. lego checks. sourlemur bets $4. > noiseboy raises to $8. lego folds. sourlemur calls. > > > Turn (board: Jh Td 4c 8d): > > noiseboy bets $8. sourlemur calls. > > River (board: Jh Td 4c 8d Tc): > > noiseboy checks. sourlemur checks. > > > > Showdown: > > noiseboy shows Jd 3d. > noiseboy has Jd Jh Td 8d Tc: two pair, jacks and tens. > sourlemur mucks cards. > (sourlemur has 8c 9s.) > > > Hand #510058-4782 Summary: > > $1.50 is raked from a pot of $38. > noiseboy wins $36.50 with two pair, jacks and tens. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > OK, so J3s you ask?? I know it's complete trash, but this is a weirdo 4/8 > table with only 1/2 blinds and it's only one more dollar to call. Normally, I > would never play it, but I think the implied odds are there to go for a flush or > two pair since the initial blinds are so small compared to later betting. Ok so > whats with the check raise, you ask. Basically, I think the late position > bettor might just be trying to pick up the pot and I want to find out if my J is > any good. He just calls the raise, so I'm still not sure but have my fears that > I might be losing. Anyway, I bet the turn because I've picked up a flush draw > and figure it might be a good semibluff. The river I'm afraid to bet because I > didn't improve, but will probably make a crying call if I'm bet into. That's > about it. > > Thanks in advance for any comments. > > I'll start: J3s, what the hell kinda hand is that? no way man, u limped in with a crap hand, picked up a ok piece of the flop and proceeded to play it nicely, and actually won with j-3. brings up a good point, people obsessed with only showing great cards at the end and feeling guilty if they're not the nuts or some kind of premuim hand from a list of acceptable starting hands. your post flop play was good and thats what counts, not the actual holding. "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Blade, 14. Oct 2003 19:17 | ||
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| The important question is if the flop completely missed you would you still like your call. If the in the same situation and the flop missed you 5 times in a row and then got beat on showdown 3 times in a row would still like your call? If you are going to call with J3s with those odds would you call from a nonblind position given the exact same odds, or has the perception that you are already in for $1 affected your play. What other hands will you play from this position? While I agree that you don't need to follow an exact starting hands list, you should know what hands you will play from that spot. The fact is that on most hands you have very little information preflop, unless you have a clear plan in your head you are left on going with your gut. Well guess what your gut wants to call. As for J3s from the blind, it will lose money overtime but its up to you. If you can anwser my questions than perhaps it works for you. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 19:28 | ||
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| this is only a blind situation on 14. Oct 2003 19:17 Blade wrote: > The important question is if the flop completely missed you would you still like your > call. If the in the same situation and the flop missed you 5 times in a row and then > got beat on showdown 3 times in a row would still like your call? > > If you are going to call with J3s with those odds would you call from a nonblind > position given the exact same odds, or has the perception that you are already in for > $1 affected your play. > > What other hands will you play from this position? While I agree that you don't > need to follow an exact starting hands list, you should know what hands you will play > from that spot. The fact is that on most hands you have very little information > preflop, unless you have a clear plan in your head you are left on going with your > gut. Well guess what your gut wants to call. > > As for J3s from the blind, it will lose money overtime but its up to you. If you > can anwser my questions than perhaps it works for you. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 19:31 | ||
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| i dont agree with the blanket statement that J3s will lose money in a MINI blind overtime. depends on the player on 14. Oct 2003 19:28 modestmice wrote: > this is only a blind situation > > on 14. Oct 2003 19:17 Blade wrote: > > The important question is if the flop completely missed you would you still like your > > > call. If the in the same situation and the flop missed you 5 times in a row and then > > > got beat on showdown 3 times in a row would still like your call? > > > > If you are going to call with J3s with those odds would you call from a nonblind > > position given the exact same odds, or has the perception that you are already in for > > > $1 affected your play. > > > > What other hands will you play from this position? While I agree that you don't > > need to follow an exact starting hands list, you should know what hands you will play > > > from that spot. The fact is that on most hands you have very little information > > preflop, unless you have a clear plan in your head you are left on going with your > > gut. Well guess what your gut wants to call. > > > > As for J3s from the blind, it will lose money overtime but its up to you. If you > > can anwser my questions than perhaps it works for you. > "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Blade, 14. Oct 2003 19:34 | ||
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| I would agree that very skilled post flop players could play this effectively but I would say they are in the minority. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Blade, 14. Oct 2003 19:35 | ||
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| Why would it matter if you are receiving the exact same odds? This was a stated reason for his call as well. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 19:50 | ||
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| actually the odds are different. If I'm putting in $1 in this mini-blind situation, then it's only 1/8th of a BB. It would be 1/4th to come in otherwise. Anyway, the small amount of money in the pot would normally make it correct to play really tight. However, when in the blinds in an unraised pot, I think the implied odds are huge if you have some players in the hand, so then I think you can loosen up from normal starting requirements. Cutting the blinds in half changes a lot, I've only started playing this table so I'm still figuring it out myself. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Blade, 14. Oct 2003 19:55 | ||
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| Yes I know in that situation the odds are different. BUT what if you are in a 2-4 game in 8th P wth j3s. The first seven people call. You have 14+3 from the blinds in the pot. 2 to you gives you 1-9 odds. Would you still call? It may be infact correct to, I don't know but I think you should. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 15. Oct 2003 09:05 | ||
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| Maybe so, in big family pots, where it's been passive and nobody will come out raising from the blinds, you might be OK with any two suited, as long as you are willing to dump if you don't flop pretty hard to it. I'm still figuring out when it's OK to play "unplayable" hands. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Schuster, 17. Oct 2003 11:56 | ||
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| The difference there is that if you are getting the same odds, you're playing against seven other people who have voluntarily entered the pot. In noiseboy's hand, there are only 2 others, and both of them are in the pot blind. I'd play this hand in that spot. Odds are not everything, you have to consider the odds you are getting compared to the number of opponents. Noiseboy, I think you played the hand well. If I was going to play, I think a checkraise on the flop was the way to go. You have to think that if the LP player had a good jack, he would have come in for a raise. You analyzed the situation well and saw a spot to make a trash hand profitable. That's what poker is about, keep up the good work. Lee | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 19:34 | ||
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| I would NEVER do it from a table with normal blinds. Basically, it only costs me $1 to see a flop where we are going to be playing 4/8 after that. I'm not sure what hands are correct to fold, probably 72o and 83o are safe to let go, but I'll play any connectors with less than three gaps, any two cards above A, even any two suited cards. On the other hand, with the blinds soooo small, I'm not going to do much, if any stealing, and I'm not coming into any pots without a premium hand, unless my position is really good. Thanks for the reply, I totally agree that J3s isn't a hand to be playing in all but the most extremely favorable circumstances. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Blade, 14. Oct 2003 19:39 | ||
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| I don't doubt that this type of game requires a different approach. It is one thing to actually look at specific hands vs. these odds and determine which ones you want to play. However to simply throw out a list of hands that sound playable is quite another, My only question is why did you choose these hands? Why suited 2 gap, what about 3 gap? My point is this, have you really given some indepth thought to what you would play or are you just picking some hands based on a standard name (suited-one gap) or a gut feeling. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 19:54 | ||
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| well, my thoughts are basically this, it's so cheap to get in that I think it's okay to play any hand that has even a remote chance of flopping something good. I'd be interested to see a computer sim on it, but I haven't broken down and bought Turbo TH yet. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Blade, 14. Oct 2003 19:58 | ||
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| Okay we are getting somewhere. Now let's quatify remote chance of flopping something good. Any hand can flop something good, quads, full house, set. This is the maniac's thinking "If this flops good I can win." Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 20:18 | ||
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| well most maniacs would be in there with the two suited cards even if the pot was raised and it cost them $5 to call. Heck, they might even raise because they just love to gamble. They aren't thinking "oh I have implied odds to call for a dollar". They are probably thinking "Woo hoo, two suited cards, lets raise it up!" I know that a lot of the hands I've mentioned are trap hands, and generally some of them should be mucked 99.9% of the time. My point is just that there are exceptions to every rule based on a specific situation. A good example is if you've ever played with a maniac short handed. Some of the biggest fish in a full ring can be monsters short handed. All the things they do wrong in a full ring, are suddenly correct three handed. They are playing the same but the situation is different and more favorable to a "crazy" style. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 19:40 | ||
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| thats what im saying when i say MINI. it is a major diff for a miniblind game, and how you play blinds in general is very important. calling here is good i think. n 14. Oct 2003 19:34 noiseboy wrote: > I would NEVER do it from a table with normal blinds. Basically, it only costs me $1 to > see a flop where we are going to be playing 4/8 after that. I'm not sure what hands are > correct to fold, probably 72o and 83o are safe to let go, but I'll play any connectors > with less than two gaps, any two cards above A, even any two suited cards. "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Blade, 14. Oct 2003 19:45 | ||
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| I dont disagree with the J3s per say, I don't know but where the error is IMO opinion is calling with a hand like that without clear reasoning, winning with it (completely irrelevant for this discussion) and then drawing the conclusion that this was indeed a good call. The first time I played poker I called with Q9 (regardless of position, raise) twice and made a full house each time. It took me a lomg time to get over that mistake. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 19:52 | ||
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| the reasoning is simple, it'll cost me a dollar to limp in with this marginal hand, and ill take it from there. as it turns out he played it well. whether he should have called can be debated, but i believe it was a good call considering the number of limpers. (5?) on 14. Oct 2003 19:45 Blade wrote: > I dont disagree with the J3s per say, I don't know but where the error is IMO opinion is calling > with a hand like that without clear reasoning, winning with it (completely irrelevant for this > discussion) and then drawing the conclusion that this was indeed a good call. > > The first time I played poker I called with Q9 (regardless of position, raise) twice and made a > full house each time. It took me a lomg time to get over that mistake. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 20:03 | ||
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| I think for such a small price in relation to later bets, Q9o would be OK too. You just fold if you dont flop two pair or something like 8TJ or 99A. If you only flopped a Q, you just play it by ear and probably fold if you get action. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 19:42 | ||
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| I meant "any two cards higher than 8" not any two cards higher than A!!! LOL | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Blade, 14. Oct 2003 19:46 | ||
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| Why not 7 or 6 or 9? | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 20:07 | ||
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| Well OK, you got me there, this isn't scientific. I'm just mentioning hands that I think will be profitable if played correctly. Mostly I posted this to get opinions on what you guys think about how loose one should play in such a favorable situation with limpers and a very small amount to call in relation to later bets. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 20:31 | ||
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| ina article about the importance of blind play i just read by my current hero, steve badger, he states that it is better to call raises with inferior starting hands in the blinds because holdem is a post flop situational game, and how you play after the flop is much more important than the relative strength of your starting hand. hope i remember that right. on 14. Oct 2003 20:07 noiseboy wrote: > Well OK, you got me there, this isn't scientific. I'm just mentioning hands that I think will be > profitable if played correctly. Mostly I posted this to get opinions on what you guys think about how > loose one should play in such a favorable situation with limpers and a very small amount to call in > relation to later bets. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, mkpoker, 14. Oct 2003 20:54 | ||
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| I think the most important factor in noiseboy's decision is (or should have been), the presence of the out-of-turn blind. This means that instead of getting 3:1 on his call, he's getting 5:1. Those odds almost make ANY hand playable. Calling with any face card is a no-brainer, IMO. If it were just the BB left (with no out-of-turn blind) I'd either raise on a steal attempt, or fold. After that, I think you played fine. I could make an argument for betting the river despite the tens pairing, but I probably would have checked, as you did. | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, Bungus, 14. Oct 2003 21:56 | ||
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| I'd be scared of Jacks higher kicker. The last check sounds good, crying call if necessary | ||
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| Re: playing trash from the blinds, shorn, 15. Oct 2003 05:53 | ||
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| I like how you played it all the way through noise. I wouldn't change a thing. And yes, the implied odds are there to call especially since the LP player only called pre-flop form LP indicating a weak hand. | ||
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