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Server Time: 11/20/2009 5:11:24 PM PACIFIC |
 Was this a right call???, AKQJ9, 14. Oct 2003 17:01 | ||
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| ok... so everyone folds to the cutoff, a maniac. he raises with J7c. i'm in the SB with KK. i three bet him. he calls. flop comes A99. i check raise him, he three bets me. so here i am confronted with the question of whether this guy has an ace, a 9, or is on a bluff. for some reason, his three bets has me really doubting. first of all, unless he raised from his position with AK or AQ, would he really three bet me? and i found it doubtful he had AK, because i held KK, and also because he probably would have 4 bet me before the flop. other reasons i found it doubtful was that he probably would have waited to checkraise me on the turn with AK or with trip 9's; he would have feared i held AK with my checkraise if he had AQ, AJ, or AT. anyway, i did not want to get pushed around by this maniac, so i decided to call him down, and he bet all the way! was this a good call??? | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, KJo, 14. Oct 2003 17:45 | ||
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| I would go to the river heads up but wouldn't go crazy doing it. It would be very easy for him to have Ax, and the 3 bet on the flop would indicate that to me. Even maniacs catch cards. Keep in mind one thing about maniacs/idiots like this- he probably doesn't have much concept or care for what you're holding, so you're probably projecting too many of your thoughts on him when all he's thinking about is his lunch. Eli on 14. Oct 2003 17:01 AKQJ9 wrote: > ok... so everyone folds to the cutoff, a maniac. he raises with J7c. i'm in > the SB with KK. i three bet him. he calls. flop comes A99. i check raise > him, he three bets me. so here i am confronted with the question of whether > this guy has an ace, a 9, or is on a bluff. for some reason, his three bets has > me really doubting. first of all, unless he raised from his position with AK or > AQ, would he really three bet me? and i found it doubtful he had AK, because i > held KK, and also because he probably would have 4 bet me before the flop. > other reasons i found it doubtful was that he probably would have waited to > checkraise me on the turn with AK or with trip 9's; he would have feared i held > AK with my checkraise if he had AQ, AJ, or AT. anyway, i did not want to get > pushed around by this maniac, so i decided to call him down, and he bet all the > way! was this a good call??? | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 17:47 | ||
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| lol, i often wonder what goes through their heads. on 14. Oct 2003 17:45 KJo wrote: > I would go to the river heads up but wouldn't go crazy doing it. It would be very > easy for him to have Ax, and the 3 bet on the flop would indicate that to me. Even > maniacs catch cards. > > Keep in mind one thing about maniacs/idiots like this- he probably doesn't have much > concept or care for what you're holding, so you're probably projecting too many of > your thoughts on him when all he's thinking about is his lunch. > > Eli > > on 14. Oct 2003 17:01 AKQJ9 wrote: > > ok... so everyone folds to the cutoff, a maniac. he raises with J7c. i'm in > > the SB with KK. i three bet him. he calls. flop comes A99. i check raise > > him, he three bets me. so here i am confronted with the question of whether > > this guy has an ace, a 9, or is on a bluff. for some reason, his three bets has > > > me really doubting. first of all, unless he raised from his position with AK or > > > AQ, would he really three bet me? and i found it doubtful he had AK, because i > > held KK, and also because he probably would have 4 bet me before the flop. > > other reasons i found it doubtful was that he probably would have waited to > > checkraise me on the turn with AK or with trip 9's; he would have feared i held > > AK with my checkraise if he had AQ, AJ, or AT. anyway, i did not want to get > > pushed around by this maniac, so i decided to call him down, and he bet all the > > way! was this a good call??? "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, KJo, 14. Oct 2003 21:35 | ||
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| I'm guessing he had the theme to "Three's Company" going through his head. That's what goes through my head when I'm feeling all dumb. Come and knock on our door... Eli on 14. Oct 2003 17:47 modestmice wrote: > lol, i often wonder what goes through their heads. > > on 14. Oct 2003 17:45 KJo wrote: > > I would go to the river heads up but wouldn't go crazy doing it. It would be very > > easy for him to have Ax, and the 3 bet on the flop would indicate that to me. Even > > maniacs catch cards. > > > > Keep in mind one thing about maniacs/idiots like this- he probably doesn't have much > > concept or care for what you're holding, so you're probably projecting too many of > > your thoughts on him when all he's thinking about is his lunch. > > > > Eli > > > > on 14. Oct 2003 17:01 AKQJ9 wrote: > > > ok... so everyone folds to the cutoff, a maniac. he raises with J7c. i'm in > > > the SB with KK. i three bet him. he calls. flop comes A99. i check raise > > > him, he three bets me. so here i am confronted with the question of whether > > > this guy has an ace, a 9, or is on a bluff. for some reason, his three bets has > > > > > me really doubting. first of all, unless he raised from his position with AK or > > > > > AQ, would he really three bet me? and i found it doubtful he had AK, because i > > > held KK, and also because he probably would have 4 bet me before the flop. > > > other reasons i found it doubtful was that he probably would have waited to > > > checkraise me on the turn with AK or with trip 9's; he would have feared i held > > > AK with my checkraise if he had AQ, AJ, or AT. anyway, i did not want to get > > > pushed around by this maniac, so i decided to call him down, and he bet all the > > > way! was this a good call??? > "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism > is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." > --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 21:55 | ||
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| lol! on 14. Oct 2003 21:35 KJo wrote: > I'm guessing he had the theme to "Three's Company" going through his head. That's what goes > through my head when I'm feeling all dumb. > > Come and knock on our door... > > > Eli > > on 14. Oct 2003 17:47 modestmice wrote: > > lol, i often wonder what goes through their heads. > > > > on 14. Oct 2003 17:45 KJo wrote: > > > I would go to the river heads up but wouldn't go crazy doing it. It would be very > > > easy for him to have Ax, and the 3 bet on the flop would indicate that to me. Even > > > maniacs catch cards. > > > > > > Keep in mind one thing about maniacs/idiots like this- he probably doesn't have much > > > concept or care for what you're holding, so you're probably projecting too many of > > > your thoughts on him when all he's thinking about is his lunch. > > > > > > Eli > > > > > > on 14. Oct 2003 17:01 AKQJ9 wrote: > > > > ok... so everyone folds to the cutoff, a maniac. he raises with J7c. i'm in > > > > the SB with KK. i three bet him. he calls. flop comes A99. i check raise > > > > him, he three bets me. so here i am confronted with the question of whether > > > > this guy has an ace, a 9, or is on a bluff. for some reason, his three bets has > > > > > > > me really doubting. first of all, unless he raised from his position with AK or > > > > > > > AQ, would he really three bet me? and i found it doubtful he had AK, because i > > > > held KK, and also because he probably would have 4 bet me before the flop. > > > > other reasons i found it doubtful was that he probably would have waited to > > > > checkraise me on the turn with AK or with trip 9's; he would have feared i held > > > > AK with my checkraise if he had AQ, AJ, or AT. anyway, i did not want to get > > > > pushed around by this maniac, so i decided to call him down, and he bet all the > > > > way! was this a good call??? > > | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, shorn, 15. Oct 2003 05:37 | ||
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| This is a tough one. Yes he is a maniac, but you can't play the hand profitably after he 3 bets the flop. So, it could cost you a ton of money if you decide he doesn't have an Ace or a 9. What I would probably do is to call his three bet and then lead the turn. If he raises you again on the turn, I think you have to let it go (unless of course you hit a King). This strategy will save you 1/2 a big bet as you won't be calling the river bet if he continues to bluff. I realize that you called him down and won the pot. But, unless you have a stone cold read on a player, i think check calling with an Acve on the board will cost you long run (much different if you held QQ and a King came IMO). | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, Phish, 15. Oct 2003 07:47 | ||
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| This is the kind of situation where, in my opinion, check and calling all the way is the correct play, though you actually made a little extra by check-raising the flop. Reason check calling is correct: If he has you beat, you lose less. If you have him beat, you gain the max letting him bluff away. No real danger of giving free cards since he's only drawing to a runner runner if he does not have an A or 9 already. FOLDING this hand at anytime would've been a big mistake. If you're beat, so be it. You'll have to pay off. | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, shorn, 15. Oct 2003 08:31 | ||
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| Phish- I don't agree that folding is a terrible play. Unless you play with the same maniac all the time, there will be plenty of times where someone will show you A2 or A3 and you will lose the pot. Why keep calling if you don't have a dead read? With your philosophy, you would suggest always calling down a maniac with second pair. Granted, your second pair here can't become third or fourth by the end, but I think it is a better play to lead again on the turn and if he raises you again you need to give it up. | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, Phish, 15. Oct 2003 12:43 | ||
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| on 15. Oct 2003 08:31 shorn wrote: > Phish- > > I don't agree that folding is a terrible play. Unless you play with the same maniac all > the time, there will be plenty of times where someone will show you A2 or A3 and you will > lose the pot. Why keep calling if you don't have a dead read? With your philosophy, you > would suggest always calling down a maniac with second pair. Granted, your second pair > here can't become third or fourth by the end, but I think it is a better play to lead > again on the turn and if he raises you again you need to give it up. Your course of action would be to checkraise the flop and lead again on the turn and dump it if raised. Cost: 2 bets and you never get to see the river. My suggestion: call, call, call. Cost 2.5 bets. For the extra half bet, you get to see the river and make sure you weren't bluffed. Plus, playing my way will win you more money if you're ahead as he tries to bluff his way thru. (you'd win 2.5 bets vs just one bet if he dumps it on the turn) But I think the biggest problem with your strategy is the image you project: which is that of someone who can be played off a big hand. This will lead to people semi-bluffing you in the future when a scarecard hits or if the board is scary as in this case. The worst image you can have is of someone who is easily bluffable. You've already shown you had a strong hand by three-betting before the flop and checkraising the turn. Don't let people think they can easily move you off a big hand with a raise on the turn. It is crucial to long-term success, especially in the bigger games, that your opponents not think of you as a folder. Does this mean you should always call down with middle pair. No. But the situation here calls for calling down. | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, shorn, 15. Oct 2003 12:49 | ||
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| Phish- Fair enough. Perhaps the games that I play in currently aren't big enough to worry about that probelm (15/30 and below). I imagine at 50/100, this would definitely not be an image you would want to project. At that level it comes down to knowing your opponents much moreso than what cards you hold. Thanks for the explanation. Steve | ||
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| Re: Was this a right call???, Phish, 16. Oct 2003 09:16 | ||
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| on 15. Oct 2003 12:49 shorn wrote: > Phish- > > Fair enough. Perhaps the games that I play in currently aren't big enough to worry about that > probelm (15/30 and below). I imagine at 50/100, this would definitely not be an image you would > want to project. At that level it comes down to knowing your opponents much moreso than what cards > you hold. > > Thanks for the explanation. > > Steve Cards you hold are important at any level. It's just that at the bigger games there will always be at least two or three observant opponents who are smart enough to capitalize on an exploitable major weakness, which means any tendency to fold the best hand. I know it's what I look for and target in my opponents. Example: Stud players who are new to holdem are tougher to bluff on the turn but easier to bluff on the river. | ||
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