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Server Time: 2/13/2012 3:13:24 AM PACIFIC |
 Poker strategy..??, Bentzen, 14. Oct 2003 15:50 | ||
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| Hi After playing mainly low-limits (1-2/2-4)for about 8 months, making around 5000$ in profits I seem to have made a halt during the last month. I'm being constantly outdrawn or beaten by trips, and Im beginning to wonder if Im trying to many flashy-plays on to low a level. Anyway here is a situation and I would be mighty glad for any comments on how I played it. I limp in with Q/9 suited and it gets raised behind me 5 players sees the flop. Q, 9, 2 all different suits I Check and the original raiser bet, I call long with 4 others Turn: Q, 9, 2, A I check, Raiser Bets, I reraise, he calls. Down to 3 players River: Q, 9, 2, A, 7 No flush possible. I bet , second player calls , original raiser folds. Second raiser shows me 9/A All to many of my games have been like this, and I 'm wondering if I should have reraised at the flop instead of waiting to set the trap on the Turn.. Kind regards S.Bentzen | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, KJo, 14. Oct 2003 17:52 | ||
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| Poker Penance. It's the poker gods smiting you for playing crap like Q9 and then trying to get tricky and slowplay it with 4 other callers. Two pair ain't all that in front of 4 people. Eli on 14. Oct 2003 15:50 Bentzen wrote: > > Hi > > After playing mainly low-limits (1-2/2-4)for about 8 months, making around > 5000$ in profits I seem to have made a halt during the last month. > > I'm being constantly outdrawn or beaten by trips, and Im beginning to wonder if > Im trying to many flashy-plays on to low a level. > > Anyway here is a situation and I would be mighty glad for any comments on how I > played it. > > I limp in with Q/9 suited and it gets raised behind me 5 players sees the > flop. > Q, 9, 2 all different suits > > I Check and the original raiser bet, I call long with 4 others > > Turn: > Q, 9, 2, A > > I check, Raiser Bets, I reraise, he calls. Down to 3 players > > River: > Q, 9, 2, A, 7 No flush possible. > > I bet , second player calls , original raiser folds. Second raiser shows me > 9/A > > All to many of my games have been like this, and I 'm wondering if I should > have reraised at the flop instead of waiting to set the trap on the Turn.. > > Kind regards > S.Bentzen | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 18:19 | ||
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| that makes no sense, as a player with A-9 will not fold to a reraise with a 9 on the flop. would you? of course not. king jack off is also right lol on 14. Oct 2003 17:52 KJo wrote: > Poker Penance. It's the poker gods smiting you for playing crap like Q9 and then > trying to get tricky and slowplay it with 4 other callers. Two pair ain't all that > in front of 4 people. > > > Eli > > on 14. Oct 2003 15:50 Bentzen wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > After playing mainly low-limits (1-2/2-4)for about 8 months, making around > > 5000$ in profits I seem to have made a halt during the last month. > > > > I'm being constantly outdrawn or beaten by trips, and Im beginning to wonder if > > Im trying to many flashy-plays on to low a level. > > > > Anyway here is a situation and I would be mighty glad for any comments on how I > > played it. > > > > I limp in with Q/9 suited and it gets raised behind me 5 players sees the > > flop. > > Q, 9, 2 all different suits > > > > I Check and the original raiser bet, I call long with 4 others > > > > Turn: > > Q, 9, 2, A > > > > I check, Raiser Bets, I reraise, he calls. Down to 3 players > > > > River: > > Q, 9, 2, A, 7 No flush possible. > > > > I bet , second player calls , original raiser folds. Second raiser shows me > > 9/A > > > > All to many of my games have been like this, and I 'm wondering if I should > > have reraised at the flop instead of waiting to set the trap on the Turn.. > > > > Kind regards > > S.Bentzen "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, iceman5, 14. Oct 2003 18:39 | ||
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| He didnt mention whether or not the guy with A9 was between him and the original raiser. If he was, it would not be correct to call 2 bets cold with second pair top kicker would it? Which brings up another question. Is it usually correct to call with second pair top kicker? Lets say 4 players to see the flop. You have AJ and the flop comes K J 2. First player bets, you are next getting between 5-1 and 7-1depending on how many calls you expect. An ace or jack will usually be enough to win so you have 5 outs. Heres the question: do you figure the odds by figuring getting a Jack or ace by the river? Or do you figure them individually? If you figure them togther you can call all the way but if you do it individually the odds for the turn are only about 9-1 and they will be worse after the turn. If you were playing strictly by the book, what would be the correct thought process? | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, modestmice, 15. Oct 2003 00:20 | ||
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| on 14. Oct 2003 18:39 iceman5 wrote: > He didnt mention whether or not the guy with A9 was between him and the original > raiser. If he was, it would not be correct to call 2 bets cold with second pair top > kicker would it? Which brings up another question. Is it usually correct to call > with second pair top kicker? Lets say 4 players to see the flop. You have AJ and > the flop comes K J 2. First player bets, you are next getting between 5-1 and > 7-1depending on how many calls you expect. An ace or jack will usually be enough to > win so you have 5 outs. Heres the question: do you figure the odds by figuring > getting a Jack or ace by the river? Or do you figure them individually? If you > figure them togther you can call all the way but if you do it individually the odds > for the turn are only about 9-1 and they will be worse after the turn. If you were > playing strictly by the book, what would be the correct thought process? i dont know, iceman, all i know is no one i play with is mucking A-9 to a raise on the flop. | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, Schuster, 17. Oct 2003 12:13 | ||
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| There's so many different situations that there is no "usually" correct thing. You have to think about the texture of the board and the tendencies of your opponents, as well as the size of the pot. In your example, you hold AJ with a K-J-2 board. Note that hitting your ace could make someone a straight if they hold QT. If someone has AK, you're drawing to 2 outs, not 5. If the pot is large enough to chase for 5 outs, then it's likely there was a preflop raise, and AK is a very common preflop raising hand. You'd have to extend your odds considerably in this spot. Now say you have A6s in the big blind and the board is 2-6-8. There was an early preflop raiser who got 4 callers, and now he checks the flop, so he probably doesn't have an overpair. It's checked to the button who bets. Now what do you do? Here, hitting your ace is less likely to make someone two pair, and it won't make a straight. The pot is being bet by the guy on the puck after he called a preflop raise cold. You figure the early raiser for big cards, and probably the same for most of the callers. The button might be trying to get people out of the pot. It's possible that he has an overpair like 99 or TT, but it's also possible he has a holding like AQ or AJ (usually it's better to take a free card in this spot, but a lot of players will position bet no matter what their holding). In this situation, I would say calling is probably not correct, but raising would be the best play. It's reasonable to think that you have the best hand, and if you don't, you still have 5 outs. You don't want people drawing to overcards, so get them out. Even though you are getting more than the 8 to 1 to play, you probably don't even need that much in a situation like this, since there is a good chance your hand is best. I hope these examples helped. Once you find yourself thinking about the texture of the board and the range of opponents possible holdings, you'll do better in deciding when to play with middle pair and when to throw it away. Good luck iceman! Lee | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, Phish, 15. Oct 2003 08:15 | ||
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| Why didn't you check-raise the flop to thin the field. When the pot is fairly big, you don't want anyone pealing for a gutshot (e.g. JT) or making trips with bottom pair. Can't emphasize enough the importance of knocking out players. Though there's a good chance he wouldn't have folded, it is still imperative to play aggressively enough in this situation to try to knock out the riffraff. The extra half bet that you get by slow playing the flop is never worth risking the entire raised pot for. An extremely important concept. | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, Mark Barnett II, 15. Oct 2003 09:36 | ||
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| ok your post isnt 100% clear on position of other players and it makes a difference. you play Q-9s, im hoping your middle to late position to make this call and others are already in the hand *otherwise this is a leak, and yes i fall into it at times also* then you say it gets raised behind you *and bet behind you on the flop so im assuming this means the original raiser is like the button*. 5 players put in 2 SB before the flop flop comes top 2 pair to you and chked to you, why do you chk? win the pot right there if you can, 5 BB for a somewhat trashy hand like Q-9s is a nice pot and 2 pair is not a monster *against better players you can start to think like this but as many have stated before bet em if ya got em cause they wont think ya got em at lower limits* you chk and original raiser bets why dont you raise now? if you thnk you have the best hand make other hands pay as much as possible to draw. now to the important question playing middle pair overcard kicker, you have 5 outs and the ace in this situation you have to be real iffy about *preflop raiser can have A-Q* but lets say you know the ace will be good if it hits, roughly 10% of the time you will get a card you like on the turn so the pot needs to have at least 9 preferably 10 SB in it to call, your pot did have the required pot odds for him to call a single bet *remember im ignoring the fact the raiser or anyone else could have A-Q* if on the other hand you bet and got raised and then he had to decide to call 2 bets cold, the pot odds would not jusitfy a call, however whether any of this info would have entered the players head is strictly hypothetical. remember poker is never a static game, variables are constantly changing, which means you need to constantly ask yourself questions and try to improve your game, i think you might have 2 issues you need to look at, one calling preflop hands, Q9s is getting real low on the totem pole do you need to push your EV this hard at low limits? also sounds like you might be developing a small case of FPS *Fancy Play Syndrome* allowing to much of what you would do effect what you think others will/would do | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, Bentzen, 18. Oct 2003 12:51 | ||
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| Sorry for the late answer but here comes.. First of all thank you for taking an interest into this.. The second raiser is at the button and Im middle limping in. The reason why I didn't raised it on the flop was for obvious getting the second bet in on the turn and trapping as many players as possible. I think Noiseboy is hitting the nail on the head...The question is if I should've taken the chance of raising on the turn, thereby trapping as many as possible vs. the risk of being outdrawn... After having gone through the situation a couple of times, I should indeed have raised on the flop, the table being a typical low-limit loose table... My main concern is that im trying to much to play flashy when the pay-off especially on the low-limits are hand selection and the bet- when-you-have-it style. Just a couple of thoughts.. Bentzen | ||
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| Re: Poker strategy..??, noiseboy, 15. Oct 2003 10:13 | ||
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| In loose games, I almost NEVER slow play. With two pair and I'm pretty sure I'm best on the flop, I'll cap it if I have the opportunity. No matter how good you think your hand is at the moment, there's somebody who will draw at runner-runner if it's cheap to do so. Even if you raise, they might still call, but you are charging them for their long shot, and you will be making long term profit on every incorrect call they make regardless of whether you win this particular hand. OK, that being said, don't play Q9 suited in EP unless it's super loose/passive. Since game conditions can change rapidly, I usually won't play a hand like that except in late position when the situation is just right. | ||
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