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Server Time: 9/6/2008 9:59:24 AM PACIFIC |
 Spirituality & The Gambler, GoBears, 14. Oct 2003 08:26 | ||
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| This post belongs squarely in the "Not Quite Poker" forum, but it's a topic I've been wrestling with for some time, and am interested in hearing your responses. I grew up in a gambling family. Trips to Vegas, Lake Tahoe and Laughlin were very regular parts of my youth. There was never an over emphasis on it, but it was always there. I've played in home games since I was in my late teens (more for the beer than for the money). Recently, I have taken an active interest in Hold Em. My question surrounds my faith (Christian) and does gambling run counter to it? I'm interested to hear if any of you, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or Zoroastrian (doesn't matter), have crossed this bridge, and what your thoughts are on it. Personally, I have come to grips with it, and treat it as any other hobby that I may spend money on (golf, skiing, home improvement, etc.) I have a great job and make a comfortable living, so I am never in a position where I'm jeopardizing my family's welfare. I play online pretty frequently (about 4 nights a week) and keep a bankroll ranging from $200 to $1,000 at any given time (thankfully it's currently closer to $1,000 than $200). I once heard Doyle Brunson say that as a Christian, he takes poker as an opportunity to make sure that some of the other players hear a little bit about God from him that they might not otherwise hear. I liked that idea. Go Bears "I'll bet you're a big Lee Marvin fan". | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, Mark, 14. Oct 2003 08:58 | ||
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| Hi Bears I grew up in a catholic family. Christianity was pushed on me, but not in any fanatical sense. Since leaving home i have renounced (not sure if this is the right word) christianity for a few reasons, so i'm not sure if you will appreciate my point of view. As i understand christianity, gambling (especially poker) does run counter to it. You (i am anyway) are trying to win another players money (greed) through deception and lies. > I once heard Doyle Brunson say that as a Christian, he takes poker as an > opportunity to make sure that some of the other players hear a little bit about > God from him that they might not otherwise hear. I liked that idea. A big part of human nature is that people can not believe that what they do is immoral or wrong, so they rationalize it to themselves. Obviously Doyle has a problem with playing poker as a christian and uses this as a way to rationalize/moralize his play to himself (and others). Personally, the last thing i would want to hear at the table is someone preaching. (Obviously, from my point of view, it would seem very hipocritical) I don't think there is anything wrong, immoral, or evil with playing poker and the above is just my point of view of how the two don't really mix. I think you should do what ever YOU feel is right for what ever reasons YOU have. If you decide to be a "good" christian while still playing poker, you will not be the first, and certainly won't be the last. Mark P.S. I'm not trying to insult anyone with this post. It is purely my point of view and is not a judgement in anyway. > Go Bears > "I'll bet you're a big Lee Marvin fan". | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, gary ford, 14. Oct 2003 09:47 | ||
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| This brings out the question legislators have tussled with. Is poker gambling? Or only certain types of poker? Contract bridge played for 10 cents a point? The answer revolves around whether or not the "house' casino or home game participates in some way. banking the game makes it gambling, but renting tables for people to " gamble" does not. Lawyers, lobbyists, and religious groups have had a field day with this question over the years. Gordon Gecko said , "greed is good " but most of us, despite the current scandals, don't agree. If you play cards for fun, there is no question---there is nothing evil about cards. When you bet on the outcome--that changes things. No different from a golf bet or football or tiddly winks. The individual needs to determine the moral questions and answers on their own. | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, GoBears, 14. Oct 2003 10:43 | ||
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| on 14. Oct 2003 08:58 Mark wrote: > As i understand christianity, gambling (especially poker) does run counter to it. > You (i am anyway) are trying to win another players money (greed) through deception > and lies. > Me??? I NEVER bluff, and when I raise, I ALWAYS have the goods. | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, ManicStarSeed, 14. Oct 2003 10:56 | ||
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| I consider myself a reformed catholic as I no longer pratice and have views that skew across many different belief systems. I look at it like this... Anything that takes your focus off your god, spiritual/personal growth, family/self nurturing, responsibilities...etc... is potentialy bad. This is why these things have been considered "sinful" in the past. It is why drug addictions are so bad, they lead to neglect of core life processes while draining resources required to sustain life. It is why blind greed can be bad, you neglect everything around you for an empty, yet profitable goal. That being said... Gambling, is an activity that can drain resources required to sustain life. It is also fun and can be profitable. Unfortunatly for many, it can also be a compulsion. Taken to extreams, gambiling can lead to neglect as it is an escape from the daily gring. Keeping all this in mind, As long as you keep it in perspective, and NEVER threatens your life processes (food, housing, family, relationships) by becoming compulsive. There is no sin, no real problem. This all changes a bit for the professional, "gambling" becomes a means for sustaining life. The highest spiritual value. This is all fine, the professionals understand the concepts of a safety net (say 6 months of bills in the bank). They work hard to keep on top of their games. The do not squander money on the wheel of fortune. If they do, it is their recreation, not their means. AND I am sure it is not often or significant that in the way it happens, otherwise the career would be short. Ask your self... Are you spending quality time with your family? Are all your financial needs met? Do you spend enough time with God? Are your responsibiltes met? Do you like yourself, win or loose? If the answere to all of these are yes, then there is no harm or sin. If there is room for improvment, then look at that more closely. On a parting note, I find all gambling, itself, a spirtiual path. I find myself connecting with myself by feeling my emotions, reflecting on them and acting accordingly. I like to say that the first time I gambled, I was just discovering my levers. You know, those things inside me that would not let me quit while I was in head or the things that pushed me to loose more or the lesson of when you sit down to gamble, play with all your heart, all you have or else you will likely loose. Remember when we sit down at a poker table we all become agents of karma. It is the karma of our decisions that dictate how well we do. Mss | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 16:57 | ||
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| good post manic, you'd fit right in here in nor cal. on 14. Oct 2003 10:56 ManicStarSeed wrote: > I consider myself a reformed catholic as I no longer pratice and have views that skew > across many different belief systems. > I look at it like this... > Anything that takes your focus off your god, spiritual/personal growth, family/self > nurturing, responsibilities...etc... is potentialy bad. This is why these things have > been considered "sinful" in the past. > It is why drug addictions are so bad, they lead to neglect of core life processes > while draining resources required to sustain life. > It is why blind greed can be bad, you neglect everything around you for an empty, > yet profitable goal. > That being said... > Gambling, is an activity that can drain resources required to sustain life. It is > also fun and can be profitable. > Unfortunatly for many, it can also be a compulsion. > Taken to extreams, gambiling can lead to neglect as it is an escape from the daily > gring. > Keeping all this in mind, As long as you keep it in perspective, and NEVER threatens > your life processes (food, housing, family, relationships) by becoming compulsive. > There is no sin, no real problem. > > This all changes a bit for the professional, "gambling" becomes a means for > sustaining life. The highest spiritual value. This is all fine, the professionals > understand the concepts of a safety net (say 6 months of bills in the bank). They > work hard to keep on top of their games. The do not squander money on the wheel of > fortune. If they do, it is their recreation, not their means. AND I am sure it is not > often or significant that in the way it happens, otherwise the career would be > short. > Ask your self... Are you spending quality time with your family? Are all your > financial needs met? Do you spend enough time with God? Are your responsibiltes met? > Do you like yourself, win or loose? If the answere to all of these are yes, then > there is no harm or sin. If there is room for improvment, then look at that more > closely. > > On a parting note, I find all gambling, itself, a spirtiual path. I find myself > connecting with myself by feeling my emotions, reflecting on them and acting > accordingly. I like to say that the first time I gambled, I was just discovering my > levers. You know, those things inside me that would not let me quit while I was in > head or the things that pushed me to loose more or the lesson of when you sit down to > gamble, play with all your heart, all you have or else you will likely loose. > > Remember when we sit down at a poker table we all become agents of karma. It is the > karma of our decisions that dictate how well we do. > > Mss "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, ManicStarSeed, 14. Oct 2003 17:00 | ||
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| LOL Thanks... Close enough. I live near Portland, OR I really like NoCal Mss | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 17:14 | ||
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| i knew it man, godman hippie pot smoking bastards. my friend bought a house in SE a couple of years ago, i moved there for a couple of months, but got a job back in sf. i love portland, to bad there are no jobs there. its funny, everybody, i mean everybody smokes weed there. i quit that awhile ago, but i was nearly forced to by some people on my stay there and had to relent. also it suck there is only that one casino, mountain something (weird, i played stud with the manager from there recently in reno, really nice guy) on 14. Oct 2003 17:00 ManicStarSeed wrote: > LOL Thanks... > Close enough. I live near Portland, OR > I really like NoCal > Mss | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, ManicStarSeed, 14. Oct 2003 17:29 | ||
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| hahaha.. LOL.. I agree....it sucks that Spirit Mountain is the ONLY poker room within a few hundred miles that spreads Hold'em. If U were in SE, then yes, the culture there maintains a fine balance between weed, coffee and micro brews. They call Portland "Little Beiruit" because every time a Bush comes to visit, we have riots. And yes the job market sucks like capping every round of betting with AAAA then folding at the river to 237A. I am lucky to be employed. I can afford my tuition. I am new to poker, but I am glad I am learning with a run of real luck, you know bad and good. Keeps me humble. Alows me to overcome and learn. Mss | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 17:37 | ||
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| i miss the cheap microbrews man. and speaking of sundays and such, i couldnt believe the partying going on at midnight on a sunday night in portland. i think its the high unemploy. ive read its the highest in nation. well, your in good hands at spirit, management sets the tone, and that guy was hella cool, so im sure spirit is a good place to play. norcal cardrooms are kinda rough, peoplewise, so your kinda lucky to be in a smaller market really. on 14. Oct 2003 17:29 ManicStarSeed wrote: > hahaha.. > LOL.. > I agree....it sucks that Spirit Mountain is the ONLY poker room within a few hundred miles that spreads > Hold'em. > > If U were in SE, then yes, the culture there maintains a fine balance between weed, coffee and micro > brews. They call Portland "Little Beiruit" because every time a Bush comes to visit, we have riots. > > And yes the job market sucks like capping every round of betting with AAAA then folding at the river to > 237A. I am lucky to be employed. I can afford my tuition. I am new to poker, but I am glad I am learning > with a run of real luck, you know bad and good. Keeps me humble. Alows me to overcome and learn. > > Mss "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler(Sorry Very LONG), WilliamS, 14. Oct 2003 11:49 | ||
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| This is a topic I have struggled with for a VERY long time. As a child, I was brought up in the Church and consider God and spirituality the most important thing in my life. With a new child (8 wks old) I am reminded daily of what is TRULY important in life. I also grew up being associated with all sorts of gambling. My grandfather was a big horse player and made frequent trips to Vegas (Craps). I played my first slot machine when I was 12, my first casino crap game when I was 16. In college, Tunica (1:45 away) got casinos. I started sneaking in when I was 19 to play craps. All through college I never struggled with over indulging in drinking, drugs, or the normal trappings of your avg. college student; but I did struggle with gambling. I only enjoyed it while winning and that wasn't as often as the increasing losses. In my first 5 trips to the casino I cashed out over a thousand dollar winner each time. This is probably one of the worst things that ever happened to me and it cost me much more in losses later on. Eventually, I broke myself from this dangerous cycle of compulsive gambling and now have no desire to play any of my previous vices like Craps or Sports Betting. I do; however, enjoy poker. Both as a hobby and a way to supplement my income. Back to the issue of gambling and spirituality. I still struggle with this issue and I'm not going to say at some point I won't decide to give it up if I feel my quality of life and/or my family can be improved by its absence; but I look at gambling much like I do other vices such as drinking. In MODERATION they can be done and enjoyed but when they begin to dictate your life and make you shortchange other more important endeavors in your life they become harmful. For example, there is nothing wrong IMO having a beer or even a couple; there is definitely something wrong being a drunk who doesn't take care of his responsiblities. In conclusion, my standpoint (at this time) is if a person is MATURE enough and strong enough in his convictions to keep gambling in perspective and not let it take over their lives there is nothing wrong with it. If a person is consumed by it and other aspects of their life deteriorate as a result of gambling it should be stopped. Some people (i.e. Roy Cooke ( I don't know him personally just judging by his posts)) can play a tremendous amount even make a living playing poker and can still keep the BIG picture in perspecitve, not letting the GAMBLE take over his/her life. But, a lot of people if not the majority of people are not mature enough or strong enough to draw that line and keep it from consuming them. I think this is especially true with younger people. My life is a perfect example, when I was younger I couldn't handle it and really struggled with it; now when I feel I'm losing balance in my life due to poker or some other issue I am mature enough to step away and reassess my priorities. The point of this LONG diatribe is the classic "it depends" answer. I think gambling can be one of the most destructive vices on earth; I also think gambling can be a very theraputic and healthly endeavor for some people. I think it boils down to each person's strengths, weaknesses, personal beliefs, and current financial situation. But more importantly than possibly everything else is having a BALANCE in one's life. I don't think it is healthy to spend all of one's time concentrating on gambling. Just as I don't feel it is healthy to stick one's nose in the Bible 18 hours a day 7 days a week and never LIVE life. Each of us has to decide our path in life; I think that path should include all the joy, hope, and goodwill we can fit into it. It is up to the individual to choose the specifics for the big picture concepts. Thats my take........sorry so long Will PS. Roy, I hope I didn't offend you by using your name in this post. I don't know your religious beliefs, but I am consistently impressed by your posts which stress having balance in one's life; as I believe this to be one of, if not the biggest issue in leading a productive life. By mentioning you I meant it as a compliment and I hope you take it as such. | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, PairTheBoard, 14. Oct 2003 12:39 | ||
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| I do not consider mayself a gambler. I am a player. I abhor the thought of gambling with an edge against me. But many people enjoy the short term results of gambling enough to pay for it in the form of a house edge. I did not create this situation. I see it as an aspect of Nature. Those with compulsive gambling problems must accept responsibilty for themselves. If I become friends with one I will gladly take them to a GA meeting if they want to go. But for my place in this gambling ecosystem, I see mayself as a hunter living on the bountiful game roaming the poker tables. As a hunter I must learn to respect my prey. Never underestimate them for they can be dangerous if I am not careful in my approach. They are in fact my spiritual guides on my hunter's path. I find their spirts within me, showing me the way. If I am to get close enough to ensnare them I must become one with them without becoming one of them. | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, Angel, 14. Oct 2003 12:39 | ||
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| Although I believe that this is a purely personal item and certainly one which no one can answer for another, I'll weigh in just simply because I think it's such an excellent question. I spent nine months in a monestary once upon a time. Needless to say, that decision was based upon my spirituality being very important to me. It's easy to not 'sin' in a monestary. You won't drink, do drugs, gamble or be promiscuous - it's simply not available. As such, there is not merit in not doing these things. You also won't fall in love, raise children or have the opportunity to forgive an enemy. There are precious few challenges in the monestary - and that's why I left. It is my belief that virtue needs choice and challenge to exist. Those I left behind in the monestary are not more virtuous than I because they don't drink and I had a glass of wine with dinner last week. It is more difficult to drink responsibly than to not drink at all. In that challenge and choice to drink responsibly lies the virtue. So too with gambling or anything else - do it responsibly and honor yourself and whatever god you believe in by doing it the very best you can. Balance it with quality time with your spouse, playing with your children and dropping a dime in someone's expired parking meter. Personally, I can't find 'sin' in that kind of life. | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, WilliamS, 14. Oct 2003 12:43 | ||
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| Angel, Great post, you said what I meant in a much more concise manner. I really enjoy all your posts. I would love to hear more of your stories about dealing to Doyle and the Big boys when you have some extra time. Will | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, gary ford, 14. Oct 2003 13:23 | ||
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| on 14. Oct 2003 12:39 Angel wrote: > Although I believe that this is a purely personal item and certainly one which no one > can answer for another, I'll weigh in just simply because I think it's such an > excellent question. > > I spent nine months in a monestary once upon a time. Needless to say, that decision > was based upon my spirituality being very important to me. It's easy to not 'sin' > in a monestary. You won't drink, do drugs, gamble or be promiscuous - it's simply > not available. As such, there is not merit in not doing these things. You also > won't fall in love, raise children or have the opportunity to forgive an enemy. > There are precious few challenges in the monestary - and that's why I left. It is my > belief that virtue needs choice and challenge to exist. Those I left behind in the > monestary are not more virtuous than I because they don't drink and I had a glass of > wine with dinner last week. It is more difficult to drink responsibly than to not > drink at all. In that challenge and choice to drink responsibly lies the virtue. > > So too with gambling or anything else - do it responsibly and honor yourself and > whatever god you believe in by doing it the very best you can. Balance it with > quality time with your spouse, playing with your children and dropping a dime in > someone's expired parking meter. Personally, I can't find 'sin' in that kind of > life. As an alcoholic i found " hell " many times. I've been sober now for 26 years, never once having taken a drink during that time. I din't need to go to a monastery or any other means of completely avoiding alcohol. i was in the nightclub businees and met the challenge head - on, the strenghth came from inside ME and I am infinitely stronger as a result. Yes, Roy, a life without balance is a poor life indeed | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, Angel, 14. Oct 2003 13:52 | ||
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| on 14. Oct 2003 13:23 gary ford wrote: > > As an alcoholic i found " hell " many times. I've been sober now for 26 years, never once > having taken a drink during that time. Well done. My hat's off to you. | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, Grateful Rooster, 14. Oct 2003 12:45 | ||
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| You should ask this question of Bill Bennett, Jr. He's always considered himself a moral authority and good Christian. He's been relatively unclear on the issue of gambling, though. Maybe you can ask him why. Regardless of religion, I find nothing immoral about fair gambling. Poker is meaningless without stakes, and if gambling is immoral, then the stock market should be outlawed. Gambling is a metaphor for life -- you go out, you take risks, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. How you live with the outcome is the real question. Main difference is poker is a zero-sum game, whereas life presents many win-win scenarios. Oh, and it's somewhat addictive, but then so is life. --GR | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 16:51 | ||
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| you funny guy, you. i guess losing 8 million by a christian is proof that gamblings ok with god. on 14. Oct 2003 12:45 Grateful Rooster wrote: > You should ask this question of Bill Bennett, Jr. He's always considered himself a > moral authority and good Christian. He's been relatively unclear on the issue of > gambling, though. Maybe you can ask him why. > > Regardless of religion, I find nothing immoral about fair gambling. Poker > is meaningless without stakes, and if gambling is immoral, then the stock market > should be outlawed. Gambling is a metaphor for life -- you go out, you take risks, > sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. How you live with the outcome is the real > question. Main difference is poker is a zero-sum game, whereas life presents many > win-win scenarios. Oh, and it's somewhat addictive, but then so is life. > > --GR "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, rdale, 14. Oct 2003 18:03 | ||
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| no more or less than winning 8 million, i really don't believe... well i really hope god isn't keeping score with money too... on 14. Oct 2003 16:51 modestmice wrote: > you funny guy, you. i guess losing 8 million by a christian is proof that gamblings ok with god. | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 18:06 | ||
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| heh, no i think bill woulda been ok with it if had won and not lost 8 mil, no tearful confessions and such... on 14. Oct 2003 18:03 rdale wrote: > no more or less than winning 8 million, i really don't believe... well i really hope god isn't > keeping score with money too... > on 14. Oct 2003 16:51 modestmice wrote: > > you funny guy, you. i guess losing 8 million by a christian is proof that gamblings ok with > god. > "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 18:07 | ||
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| convienient morals on 14. Oct 2003 18:06 modestmice wrote: > heh, no i think bill woulda been ok with it if had won and not lost 8 mil, no tearful confessions > and such... > > on 14. Oct 2003 18:03 rdale wrote: > > no more or less than winning 8 million, i really don't believe... well i really hope god isn't > > keeping score with money too... > > on 14. Oct 2003 16:51 modestmice wrote: > > > you funny guy, you. i guess losing 8 million by a christian is proof that gamblings ok with > > god. > > > "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of > the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." > --Steve Badger "Some of the truly weakest players are those who think they know it all. Know-it-all-ism is one of the most exploitable weaknesses a player can have." --Steve Badger | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, modestmice, 14. Oct 2003 16:48 | ||
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| great subject. i was also raised christian and attended christian school before being kicked out. i believe gambling and poker is squarely against the precepts in the bible and clearly is a sin. however, like any contentious issue, it is a very personal , subjective opinion. but, being a pesron that believes in god but not in a organization, i really don't have to feel guilty about it. whether you do or not is up to you, no one should be able to tell you what you should fell guilty about, not feel guilty about. good luck A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. -- Friedrich Nietzsche on 14. Oct 2003 08:26 GoBears wrote: > This post belongs squarely in the "Not Quite Poker" forum, but it's a topic I've > been wrestling with for some time, and am interested in hearing your > responses. > > I grew up in a gambling family. Trips to Vegas, Lake Tahoe and Laughlin were > very regular parts of my youth. There was never an over emphasis on it, but it > was always there. I've played in home games since I was in my late teens (more > for the beer than for the money). Recently, I have taken an active interest in > Hold Em. > > My question surrounds my faith (Christian) and does gambling run counter to it? > I'm interested to hear if any of you, whether you're Christian, Jewish, > Buddhist, or Zoroastrian (doesn't matter), have crossed this bridge, and what > your thoughts are on it. Personally, I have come to grips with it, and treat it > as any other hobby that I may spend money on (golf, skiing, home improvement, > etc.) I have a great job and make a comfortable living, so I am never in a > position where I'm jeopardizing my family's welfare. I play online pretty > frequently (about 4 nights a week) and keep a bankroll ranging from $200 to > $1,000 at any given time (thankfully it's currently closer to $1,000 than > $200). > > I once heard Doyle Brunson say that as a Christian, he takes poker as an > opportunity to make sure that some of the other players hear a little bit about > God from him that they might not otherwise hear. I liked that idea. > > Go Bears > "I'll bet you're a big Lee Marvin fan". | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, GoBears, 14. Oct 2003 23:07 | ||
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| Thanks for the responses. There's nothing I enjoy more than listening to healthy debate with good points on either side. I too struggle with the idea of taking someone else's money using deception and lies. I also think it is quite likely a sin. BTW, I just took down a pot holding AKo with a flop of Q-7-2 rainbow using a pot sized bet from UTG. More lies and deception!!! But, I can honestly say that I play for enjoyment, and do not consider this to be an income for me. Heck, I'm just competent enough to break even most nights (although I've won my last 2 SnG's). I'll continue to think about it. Thanks for all of your great thoughts. Go Bears "I'll bet you're a big Lee Marvin fan." | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, Angel, 15. Oct 2003 02:10 | ||
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| Perhaps it shall help if you think of it this way: Please, in your next post - tell me that you're 189 years old. Now when you tell me - is it a lie? We both entered into an exchange upon which we agreed that lying would be ok. What else is poker? Bluffing and deceipt are the accepted, agreed upon terms of the game we both agreed to play. Please disregard this suggestion if you actually are 189 years old ;) | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, DallasPokerFan, 15. Oct 2003 13:39 | ||
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| Hmm. Difficult question. I think, to the Christian, there are two key points. 1. Stewardship. Both the OT and NT teach that the things we have belong to God, not to us, and that we are stewards of them. They also teach that we will be held accountable for how we act as stewards. So, for the Christian, the question becomes, how do I feel about being held to account for playing poker with the money entrusted under my stewardship, whether it's $10 or $1 million? 2. Getting-rich-quick. Paul writes that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Gamblers oftentimes try to hit the jackpot, and will spend lots of money trying to do it. People who do this are loving money and not God (you can't serve two masters, Jesus said). This is probably less of a problem for poker players than for slot players, in general, but poker players can be vulnerable. Note that, as far as I can tell, neither the OT nor the NT teach against honeslty earning a large amount of money in a short period of time, i.e., investing in Microsoft or Wal-Mart on the ground floor. From a stewarship standpoint, the amount of money wagered and whether or not you can afford to lose it do not enter the picture because bad stewardship is bad stewardship, no matter how much money you're being a bad steward of. And, of course, any series of decisions someone, Christian or otherwise, makes that negatively affects self and family - i.e., gambing away Junior's college money - has to be regarded as not honoring to God. All that being said, tournaments are probably a good answer since it represents the purest form of poker competition, and someone's losses are limited by the buy-in .. no matter how much a tournament's buy-in, a player can only lose that much whereas in a cash game, a player can, theoretically, lose everything. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, MoTownJ5, 15. Oct 2003 16:55 | ||
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| Yes! Poker is gambling Does anyone ever care no. It all depends on your ethical stand point on GAMBLING. My view point is when you bet on something that is a flat out hoaks or something that is impossible to win such as hitting the same number over and over in a row playing a 1000 number roulette game. Thats just my view point though. | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, Grateful Rooster, 17. Oct 2003 10:29 | ||
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| I don't know if anyone is still reading this string, but I just came across a symbolic link between religion and poker that I found interesting. Read this in Positively Fifth St. Apparently, at one point, aces were only counted low so that the kings were top followed by his court and then the minions. Though the book doesn't make clear how this came about, someone thought it best that the game recognize a higher power over the ranks of men. The ace became the symbol of this higher power and thus trumped all royalty, yet was still able to work with the lowest of outcasts (deuces, etc.) Quite a nice metaphor, I think. So, in at least a symbolic sense, the cards recognize the higher plane. What we do with this basic structure is our own choice -- in poker, as in life. --GR | ||
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| Re: Spirituality & The Gambler, GDuckMan, 20. Oct 2003 15:09 | ||
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| Very interesting question and a great forum in general. This is my first post, as I've been mostly catching up on reading all of the posts. My beliefs sway in the direction of eastern thought, even though I would not consider myself a part of any organized religion. I've joined a Zen center for a while and practiced Zen meditation (I still meditate for my own good, but don't do formal practice), which basically consists of sitting still and observing thoughts. Not getting attached to them but just watching your thoughts flow like clouds. In reality, you do get attached to every thought and it gives you a great insight into how one's mind never stops nagging and create "problems". I found that playing poker can be a meditation of its own. I am amazed with the range and the sheer number of thoughts that go through my head during a session. One moment you're happy and can do no wrong; five minutes later, you've lost a couple of pots and think that you'll never win another one. I also found that keeping a meditative state of mind (along with improving the game by learning) helps a lot. It helped me to stay more patient and keep the "big picture" view of the game. | ||
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