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Server Time: 12/1/2008 10:52:47 AM PACIFIC |
 The "Cascade Effect", MozMan, 13. Oct 2003 21:23 | ||
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| Hi guys- I've noticed something in limit HE play recently that I'd like to hear some opinions on. We all know the general rule that you shouldn't limp in early with drawing hands (medium suited/connected, for example), mainly because a) you don't know if there will be enough callers for the hand to play properly, and b) there are still a lot of players who could raise you. I can't tell you how many times I have laid down a hand like that and was happy when only two or three saw the flop. I would think to myself, "see, I wouldn't have had enough callers." Anyway, I got to wondering how many players after me might not have folded if there were more in the hand. So I started a little experiment. Whenever I find myself in a fairly passive game, with little pre-flop raising, I've been limping-in on occasion a little earlier with drawing hands, and purposely folding them against the same players on other occasions. What I have noticed is what appears to be a cascading effect: if I limp in, then another player later than me will also limp in, then another... next thing I know, there are five or six of us seeing the flop and I've got a drawing hand that is multi-way. If I fold off, then the cascade goes the other way and the flop is 2 or 3 handed. Of course, this doesn't help post-flop play at all, I know. I have really just been interested in the idea of the cascade effect in an academic sense. -Moz "There's too much caffeine in your bloodstream, and a lack of real spice in your life." | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", modestmice, 13. Oct 2003 21:29 | ||
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| cool experiment. i have sorta noticed it when there is a player or players that are bad, and more people seem to limp when they are in.... on 13. Oct 2003 21:23 MozMan wrote: > Hi guys- > > I've noticed something in limit HE play recently that I'd like to hear some > opinions on. > > We all know the general rule that you shouldn't limp in early with > drawing hands (medium suited/connected, for example), mainly because a) you > don't know if there will be enough callers for the hand to play properly, and b) > there are still a lot of players who could raise you. > > I can't tell you how many times I have laid down a hand like that and was happy > when only two or three saw the flop. I would think to myself, "see, I wouldn't > have had enough callers." > > Anyway, I got to wondering how many players after me might not have folded if > there were more in the hand. > > So I started a little experiment. Whenever I find myself in a fairly passive > game, with little pre-flop raising, I've been limping-in on occasion a little > earlier with drawing hands, and purposely folding them against the same players > on other occasions. What I have noticed is what appears to be a cascading > effect: if I limp in, then another player later than me will also limp in, then > another... next thing I know, there are five or six of us seeing the flop and > I've got a drawing hand that is multi-way. If I fold off, then the cascade goes > the other way and the flop is 2 or 3 handed. > > Of course, this doesn't help post-flop play at all, I know. I have really just > been interested in the idea of the cascade effect in an academic sense. > > -Moz > > "There's too much caffeine in your bloodstream, and a lack of real spice in > your life." | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", Blade, 13. Oct 2003 21:32 | ||
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| I dont think you meant it in the way that reads but LOL | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", MozMan, 13. Oct 2003 21:37 | ||
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| ROTFLMAO! Thanks for the compliment. ;-P -Moz "There's too much caffeine in your bloodstream, and a lack of real spice in your life." | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", modestmice, 13. Oct 2003 22:59 | ||
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| aton 13. Oct 2003 21:37 MozMan wrote: > ROTFLMAO! Thanks for the compliment. ;-P > > -Moz > > "There's too much caffeine in your bloodstream, and a lack of real spice in your life." LOL, it was unintentional...but i did see that after i wrote the post, and thought it would be funny... When I played pool I was like a good psychiatrist. I cured them of all their daydreams and delusions." -- Minnesota Fats | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", Blade, 13. Oct 2003 21:31 | ||
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| Really good post. Definently worth a lot of thought. I suspect there is a mathematical reason (could the fish subconciously look at pot odds) and more than likely some sort of psycological reason. very thought provoking.....thank you. | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", mkpoker, 13. Oct 2003 22:24 | ||
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| There's no doubt that an early limper can produce this kind of "cascade." In fact, I think Grant Pittman posted a hand earlier in which he deliberately limped, rather than raised, for the purpose of manipulating the number of players to see the flop. But you need to be careful only to do this in passive games. Your strategy gets blown up when an aggressive player raises, and someone reraises behind him. Then, your callers start dropping out and you probably need to let your early bets go. | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", PairTheBoard, 13. Oct 2003 23:33 | ||
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| I think there's definitely something to this. I think it's especially true when there is a player putting in an extra blind in middle or even late position. I don't like the term "fish". I prefer to think of them as "gamblers" and although they are loose they are not stupid. When they see they are going to be able to gamble FOR something they are more likely to come in. imo | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", shorn, 14. Oct 2003 06:32 | ||
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| There is something to it, but I am not sure that long run it is a +EV strategy. Many of these hands will get quite expensive if you aren't good enough to know when to release them on the flop. It is one of those "compouinding errors" situations. So, you need to be quite solid post flop RELATIVE to your competition to make these hands have positive expectation for you unless the game is perfect. | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", Roy Cooke, 14. Oct 2003 07:33 | ||
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| If you are going to play those texture of hands upfront, then you need to have a good feel that it will be a volume pot and hopefully unraised. Some games tend to play more pots in that manner because the field is mostly loose passive. That said, most players would be better off just folding them in all situations. Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 13. Oct 2003 21:23 MozMan wrote: > Hi guys- > > I've noticed something in limit HE play recently that I'd like to hear some > opinions on. > > We all know the general rule that you shouldn't limp in early with > drawing hands (medium suited/connected, for example), mainly because a) you > don't know if there will be enough callers for the hand to play properly, and b) > there are still a lot of players who could raise you. > > I can't tell you how many times I have laid down a hand like that and was happy > when only two or three saw the flop. I would think to myself, "see, I wouldn't > have had enough callers." > > Anyway, I got to wondering how many players after me might not have folded if > there were more in the hand. > > So I started a little experiment. Whenever I find myself in a fairly passive > game, with little pre-flop raising, I've been limping-in on occasion a little > earlier with drawing hands, and purposely folding them against the same players > on other occasions. What I have noticed is what appears to be a cascading > effect: if I limp in, then another player later than me will also limp in, then > another... next thing I know, there are five or six of us seeing the flop and > I've got a drawing hand that is multi-way. If I fold off, then the cascade goes > the other way and the flop is 2 or 3 handed. > > Of course, this doesn't help post-flop play at all, I know. I have really just > been interested in the idea of the cascade effect in an academic sense. > > -Moz > > "There's too much caffeine in your bloodstream, and a lack of real spice in > your life." | ||
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| Re: The "Cascade Effect", noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 09:31 | ||
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| Yep, you are absolutely right, limpers beget more limpers! In a loose passive game I'll definitely go with Axs or a small pair from EP, if I don't get enough players every time, or if I get raised once in a while, it's a fairly small loss when compared to the big multiway pots you will bring down when you hit a nice flop for your drawing hand. Anyway, I always remind myself that it only takes one aggressive player sitting down to ruin this strategy. Not only do limpers beget limpers, but also cold callers beget more cold callers in loose games. I've noticed that if I raise with my pocket AA's UTG, if the next person calls, it makes more people likely to call, but if the next few people fold, sometimes everyone else will fold as well. Playing in EP optimally requires that you look into your crystal ball and try to predict the future. | ||
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