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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:19:56 AM PACIFIC |
 Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., grant pittman, 13. Oct 2003 08:18 | ||
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| While playing in a $50-$100 holdem game last week in Brantford Ontario, Canada I watched this hand play out. The game was 10 handed and all folded to the player one off the button who opened for a raise. The opener was a strong aggressive player who has a good understanding of the game. The button folded and the small blind made it $150 to go. The BB folded and now the original raiser confidently made it $200. When he 4 bet the pot it got my attention. He had been played back at several times in the session in similar situations and flat called. I was sure he held a big hand here. Furthermore, he respected the small blinds raise and just didn't care. The SB called and the flop came A-K-7 no suit. The small blind checked and the raiser lead.....the SB called. The turn brought the 3 of diamonds making a two flush and the SB check raised. He was 3 bet immediately by his opponent and called. The river brought the 9 of diamonds and the SB check raised his opponent and got paid off. The SB showed the A2 of diamonds for the nuts. As I looked at the disgust on the face of his opponent I noted the error the SB had made in the hand on the turn. I see this semibluff play a lot in poker...sometimes it's a good play but often it's weak or like this case HORRENDOUS!!!!! The raiser in this hand made it 4 bets before the flop....this is the key to the whole hand and the SB ignored it or just missed it altogether!!!! The raiser has little information about the SB's hand but he knows that if the SB called a bet with an ace and king on the flop he is likely to have one. Knowing this, the raiser is VERY UNLIKELY to bet a hand that doesn't beat an ace or king (ie: QQ JJ etc.) on the turn. If the raiser does bet, not only does he have a big hand, he is SO OFTEN going to have a holding that A2 is drawing slim to that a raise by the SB is RIDICULOUS!!!! The raise will only be reraised by this player since he is aggressive and reads hands well. The raise on the turn was a big error by the SB in this case but he caught good on the river to win. Lots of strong players get excited when they pick up flush draws to add to their made flop hand. Understanding when to truly be excited about the situation takes some thought and analysis. Don't jump the gun when it looks pretty....you might get shot!!! Good luck!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 10:26 | ||
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| I agree the semi-bluff was an error, though perhaps not a HUGE error as you put it. I would say that the biggest error in the hand was playing back with the A2s from the SB at all. By far the better option is to just release the hand in the first place since you have very little invested. By 3-betting preflop, the SB has represented a really big hand. Since the player will make the draw sometimes hitting a diamond or possibly a 2, the bluff only has to work a relatively small percentage of the time to be correct. Also, it would be hard for the other player to call with anything less than top two, because he has to give credit to the SB for a big hand as well. One more fact, the pot is really big at that point, so the idea of doing everything you can to win it would apply normally; however, I think just calling and praying for a diamond or a two is probably a better option. Don't get me wrong, I agree that the fact that the other player capped the betting pre-flop makes this later semi-bluff play incorrect, but I think the more important error was made earlier in the hand. That being said, I know you are a lot more experienced and better than me, so I could be way off base. ;) | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 10:34 | ||
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| BTW, thanks for the post, it's nice to know that 50-100 players also make the mistake of overrating Axs for when I get the bankroll to play that high. It didn't work out for the good player this time, but players like that one are his bread'n'butter is my guess. It probably kills him to lose a hand like this when he probably had top two or a set of A's or K's, but long term he's going to get the money from the SB player. | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., mkpoker, 13. Oct 2003 12:52 | ||
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| The turn check-raise-semibluff was a catastrophic blunder. Heck, the flop call was probably ill-advised. I have no problem with the pre-flop 3-bet. It's fighting back against a possible steal-raise, just as noiseboy did in the above hand with AJo. But when the raiser caps...your heart sinks! You now realize it probably wasn't an attempted steal. Instead, you're behind to anything but a stone-cold bluff (and you rarely see a bluffer cap the betting). You've got to put the raiser on AA, KK, or AK at this point. I'd call the last bet pre-flop, though, in the hope of catching a flush draw. That flop was an absolute nightmare for the SB. His ace is almost certainly no good. His opponent probably has a set or two-pair. SB has a big pile of nothing. He can win only by hitting a backdoor flush (a 24:1 shot) or MAYBE with running twos (a 300:1 shot). The raiser bets. Granted the pot is big at this point, but SB's chances are so slim, I'd muck here. The diamond on the turn helps, but he's still way behind and has only a 20% chance of hitting the flush. And some of his outs to the flush are tainted due to the possibility that the raiser flopped a set. If the board pairs, his flush might lose to a FH. **There's no freakin' way the raiser will fold to SB's turn check-raise. That's why the semibluff was such a blunder.** It's correct to semi-bluff when you hope/think your opponent will fold, but you've still got outs if he calls. In this case, with zero chance of getting the raiser to muck, the semi-bluff is just plain crazy. Instead, SB should try to get to the river as cheaply as possible and hope for the best. I'm not surprised the check-raise on the river worked. It would have been very hard to put SB on the flush **because no one in their right mind would have stayed in this hand with just a backdoor flush draw**. Who are these people? And why don't they ever play with me? | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 16:27 | ||
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| my point was not that the semi-bluff raise wasn't an error, obviously it was, just that 3-betting out of the small blind with A2 is ill-advised in this situation, especially when the raise comes from a decent player who can play well after the flop. This initial error led to all the other errors in the hand. Even if you flop an A, this hand leaves you unsure of how to continue, if your A is good, you need to bet it, so your opponent doesn't catch you, but if it's not good, you will likely lose a bunch of bets. Now when the initial raiser caps, he could either be on something really huge, but he could also just realize that you are sick of him messing with your blinds and are playing back with something not so great. In this case, he still has position and may just cap because he knows that the flop isn't going to hit the SB most of the time, and he will get information by how you react to the flop. A2s can be OK heads-up, but the SB isn't even sure that the BB won't come out swinging, so I say just let it go. If the BB comes in, you've got two players with position against you. I don't know, the idea of the play is right, but I think I'd want at least A7o or something. I ignore the suits for the most part when I know it's going to be heads-up or short handed. Let the BB worry about defending, he's got more invested than the SB. Yep, calling the flop, and going for a raise just because you picked up a flush draw are mistakes, but in the end, he got into a really bad situation where he should have lost a bunch of bets when he could have easily just let it go for less than a single SB. | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 16:33 | ||
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| One more thing, I'm not entirely sure that you have to put the initial raiser on AA, KK, or AK. It depends on how aggressive the player is. Some players might cap with something like 99s or TTs if they suspect that the SB is just making a play. Of course, I'd generally give the SB more credit than the BB for having a real hand. | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., grant pittman, 13. Oct 2003 16:28 | ||
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| Thanks for the reply noiseboy. From it arises another point for discussion. The 3 bet from the SB preflop was, in my opinion, not only correct but necessary given the situation and who was raising. The SB knew that the opener could have a large range of hands in this spot. The SB also believed ( as do I ) that mucking preflop was weak and calling was just about as weak. I would also have 3 bet the hand in this situation and really hated his 4 bet but this is poker and you will have to gamble in situations when your opponents are aggressive. Otherwise, I would suggest playing at much lower limits where the play is more predictable and the reraise is both unnecessary and wrong. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 17:24 | ||
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| Hmmm, you are definitely the expert at higher limits, maybe I'll give the A2 three bet thing a try, but I would really feel MUCH more comfortable with at least A6 or so, but maybe I'm being too tight. I know there are a lot of times when your A will hold up unimproved when heads-up, so I understand that you play A-rag much more aggressively short handed. However, my qualm is that not only is there the danger that the button will cap, especially if he suspects you are making a play, but there is also the danger that the BB actually has something, in which case you are against two opponents who both have position on you. Ok, and here is the part I missed on the first read through: " He had been played back at several times in the session in similar situations and flat called. I was sure he held a big hand here. Furthermore, he respected the small blinds raise and just didn't care. " In this case, I guess you can be almost sure that the LP player is really on a hand and not just playing at Power Poker. I guess I would feel more comfortable making the play from the BB because there isn't the danger of someone waking up behind you, and you are further invested in the hand because you've got a full bet in the pot. Definitely too weak to fold there. I also didn't really catch whether the blind was 1/2 or 2/3, so that would be something else important to consider. | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 17:33 | ||
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| One more thing, when I'm in a steal position, and someone I've been beating on a lot makes it 3-bets, I'll often cap it if I smell any weakness at all, even the slightest hint. I feel if I cap it, I can often take the pot away from them with my position later in the hand, depending on the flop texture and my read of the player. Obviously, this isn't something I'm going to do against the rock. I know that sometimes people play back without much to get you off their back, or sometimes just out of frustration, so if I suspect this, am I right to go for the jugular? Is this just too aggressive, should I only do this with AA, KK, or AK, which is what we are putting this guy on? Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., grant pittman, 14. Oct 2003 05:27 | ||
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| Noiseboy thank you for your contributions on this post. Speaking up about your views and opinions on hands is the fuel that makes a forum run. I know it is human nature to hold back and keep quiet if we are unsure....thanks for stepping up to bat!!! Good luck!!! GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., Phish, 14. Oct 2003 14:10 | ||
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| on 13. Oct 2003 10:26 noiseboy wrote: > I agree the semi-bluff was an error, though perhaps not a HUGE error as you put it. > I would say that the biggest error in the hand was playing back with the A2s from the > SB at all. By far the better option is to just release the hand in the first place > since you have very little invested. > > By 3-betting preflop, the SB has represented a really big hand. Since the player > will make the draw sometimes hitting a diamond or possibly a 2, the bluff only has to > work a relatively small percentage of the time to be correct. Also, it would be hard > for the other player to call with anything less than top two, because he has to give > credit to the SB for a big hand as well. One more fact, the pot is really big at > that point, so the idea of doing everything you can to win it would apply normally; > however, I think just calling and praying for a diamond or a two is probably a better > option. > > Don't get me wrong, I agree that the fact that the other player capped the betting > pre-flop makes this later semi-bluff play incorrect, but I think the more important > error was made earlier in the hand. That being said, I know you are a lot more > experienced and better than me, so I could be way off base. ;) Actually, I don't think three-betting pre-flop with the A2s was an error at all. Against a button raise when no one else has entered the pot, A2s is more than likely a hand that can hold up as a winner on the river unimproved. Three-betting is crucial to get the big blind out and to establish the psychological lead. And against certain types of opponents (there are players who raise often on the button when no one else in, but are quick to fold after the flop), it is an extremely profitable play. And the four-bet doesn't necessarily represent a monster either, since some aggressive opponents will four-bet this situation to reassert control even with marginal hands, especially if they know that the SB will three-bet with a range of hands. (The psychology can get a bit complex at this level). But I agree the check-raise on the turn was a mistake, because the SB actually does have a hand that is moderately strong. He should know that no hand that can beat his is going to fold, and he would rather that a weaker hand try to bluff again on the river. Of course, he is giving a free card (by just calling instead of raising the turn), but with his flush draw, his opponent is unlikely to have more than 5 outs. His is exactly the type of situation where check-call is the almost automatic play. But to be honest, I don't see it as all that big an error. Mathematically, it had a expectation of maybe one extra bet lost. | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player., noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 19:22 | ||
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| I tend to go after the blinds with the any-A hands, so my thought was that A2 might be trouble. Also, you'd be better off with any two overcards if the original raiser is on a small pair. However, if you are against a frequent stealer, maybe A2 is good enough. | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player.(how off am I?), WilliamS, 14. Oct 2003 06:45 | ||
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| Grant, If the SB put the preflop raiser on a hand like 1010 JJ or QQ is it possible he actually ckraised the turn for value in his mind rather than a semi bluff. I feel the only way he makes that play on the turn is if he puts the preflop raiser on one of those hands. It just doesn't make sense to make that move if he believes the preflop raiser to hold anything better than that (i.e. AA, AK, KK ) After the preflop raiser calls his checkraise I feel the SB knows he's behind and has to hit his flush to win which he was LUCKY enough to do. I'm not contending the SB's play was correct on the turn, but I do believe he thought there was a reasonable chance he was ahead on the turn. To take this a step further, if I were the SB I would actually feel QQ or JJ might be a more possible holding than AA KK. I'm probably overthinking this, but I would have thought the LP player might not cap the betting preflop with those hands in order to get more value in a heads up pot. Where if he held QQ or JJ he would want to show extra aggression to try to position himself to fold off a holding like A2. So, if I'm the SB I put the LP player on AK, QQ, or JJ; 2 of the 3 the check raise on the turn is a good play. When the LP player calls, I probably decide I'm behind to AK, but still have the lucky river card to bale me out which did bale the player out in this instance. I know I'm over analyzing this, especially without knowing the LP raiser, but my concept doesn't change that the SB felt he was in the lead at the time of the checkraise. Will | ||
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| Re: Another situational error from a knowledgeable player.(how off am I?), Phish, 15. Oct 2003 08:27 | ||
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| on 14. Oct 2003 06:45 WilliamS wrote: > Grant, > If the SB put the preflop raiser on a hand like 1010 JJ or QQ is it possible he > actually ckraised the turn for value in his mind rather than a semi bluff. I feel > the only way he makes that play on the turn is if he puts the preflop raiser on one > of those hands. It just doesn't make sense to make that move if he believes the > preflop raiser to hold anything better than that (i.e. AA, AK, KK ) > After the preflop raiser calls his checkraise I feel the SB knows he's behind and > has to hit his flush to win which he was LUCKY enough to do. > I'm not contending the SB's play was correct on the turn, but I do believe he > thought there was a reasonable chance he was ahead on the turn. > To take this a step further, if I were the SB I would actually feel QQ or JJ might > be a more possible holding than AA KK. I'm probably overthinking this, but I would > have thought the LP player might not cap the betting preflop with those hands in > order to get more value in a heads up pot. Where if he held QQ or JJ he would want > to show extra aggression to try to position himself to fold off a holding like A2. > So, if I'm the SB I put the LP player on AK, QQ, or JJ; 2 of the 3 the check raise on > the turn is a good play. When the LP player calls, I probably decide I'm behind to > AK, but still have the lucky river card to bale me out which did bale the player out > in this instance. > I know I'm over analyzing this, especially without knowing the LP raiser, but my > concept doesn't change that the SB felt he was in the lead at the time of the > checkraise. > > Will But if he was ahead, his opponent may likely fold and he won't get anymore. Whereas if he was behind, he'd lose two extra bets with his checkraise. Limit poker is not like no-limit or pot-limit. In those games, you try to read your opponent precisely and act accordingly. In limit, you put your opponent on a range of possible hands and select the course of action that will maximize your win or minimize you loss depending on whichever is the case. The checkraise here will maximize his loss if he's behind and likely will not win anymore if he's ahead. (This is not 100% clean-cut of course, since his opponent may pay off all the way with JJ and he avoids giving a free card. But in general I believe the chkraise was a mistake. | ||
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