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Server Time: 12/1/2008 2:30:20 PM PACIFIC |
 Would you have folded this FH?, mkpoker, 12. Oct 2003 10:10 | ||
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| Just finished a very frustrating session at UB. Playing at a table with the truest maniac I've ever seen...raised EVERY hand pre-flop and probably stayed in 75% of pots until the river--often with nothing. This wonderful set-up corresponded to perhaps the worst run of cards I've ever received...but those are stories for the Bad Beat section. So from MP, I'm dealt QJh (maniac is directly across the table in LP). A MP player in front of me open-limps, I limp. Maniac LP raises. BB calls MP calls, I call. MP to my right is a solid player. Flop is JJA. MP checks. I bet. Maniac raises (which means nothing). BB folds, mp calls. I reraise. All call. Turn is A, giving me Jacks full. MP now bets out (his first lead). He's very much the type to play Ace-face, which would give him Aces full. What's worse, if I decide to call him down, the maniac behind us might raise (with anything), which would force me to call double and triple bets to the end. My gut says fold, but I choke it down and call. Maniac folds, to my surprise. River is a blank. MP bets. I call. He shows AQ. What factors went into my decision to call? The pot was big...which begs for calling MP down. But his betting pattern pointed to Aces-full fairly clearly, which argues for a fold. Also, having the maniac in the pot might have forced me to make big bets to call down (fortunately, this possibility didn't materialize), which begs for a fold. And the final factor may be this: It's just damn hard to lay down Jacks full! So what do you think...should I have folded here? | ||
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| Re: Would you have folded this FH?, ReMMy, 12. Oct 2003 10:43 | ||
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| Well, depending on how smart the MP is, he might also have a J, or even a K, he might figure the maniac for nothing, but know that you might very likely fold a J simply because of your horrible positioning in this hand. You knew you were in for at least 2 bets, I would have simply put them both in by raising the turn and see what happens. If they both call, and he bets out again on the river you could always fold then, you might also very likely see the river for free, meaning you still only spent 2 bets.. | ||
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| Re: Would you have folded this FH?, Mark, 12. Oct 2003 13:41 | ||
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| Hey mk, my thoughts are below. > I call. MP to my right is a solid player. > > Flop is JJA. MP checks. I bet. Maniac raises (which means nothing). BB > folds, mp calls. I reraise. All call. Turn is A, giving me Jacks full. MP > now bets out (his first lead). He's very much the type to play Ace-face, which > would give him Aces full. What's worse, if I decide to call him down, the > maniac behind us might raise (with anything), which would force me to call > double and triple bets to the end. > > My gut says fold, but I choke it down and call. Maniac folds, to my surprise. > River is a blank. MP bets. I call. He shows AQ. I think a fold on the turn would be prudent. You figured the MP player to be more than capable of playing a big ace, and from the flop betting, what could he possibly have? Would he call multiple bets with a draw on the flop, then bluff into a probable full house on the river? This doesn't seem probable from a "solid" player. He was slow playing pre-flop and flop, knowing the maniac would be betting for him. > What factors went into my decision to call? > > The pot was big...which begs for calling MP down. But his betting pattern > pointed to Aces-full fairly clearly, which argues for a fold. Pot odds dictate a call *IF* you are unsure of your place in the hand. They don't turn a clear fold into a call. You figured you were beaten, you should have folded. >Also, having the > maniac in the pot might have forced me to make big bets to call down > (fortunately, this possibility didn't materialize), which begs for a fold. Also, the fact that there was a maniac in the pot decreases the chances that the mp would be bluffing. >And > the final factor may be this: It's just damn hard to lay down Jacks full! The ranking of your hand should not have any bearing on how it is played. What is important is the strenght of your hand against your opponents possible/probable hands. On the turn, it would be very possible for your hand to be the worst one. > So what do you think...should I have folded here? Definately! The mp lead into the turn when the board paired after both you and the maniac showed considerable strenght (although the maniac's raise didn't mean much) If you asked yourself, "what hands could he possible lead into me on the turn with?", you would see that an ace is the most likely answer (for a solid player). Mark | ||
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| Re: Would you have folded this FH?, mkpoker, 12. Oct 2003 17:40 | ||
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| Mark, Just wanted to say that your point in the dialog below (and the same point echoed by ModestMouse) is dead-on right. In thinking about this hand further, I realized that if the flop were Jxx (and I held a single jack), I would have mucked to a solid player's bet without a second thought when an A came on the turn. But because the flop was AJJ, I got all excited at flopping a great hand and couldn't let it go when the card that obviously killed my hand (the second ace) came down. We'll chalk it up to a learning experience.... MK Wrote: And the final factor may be this: It's just damn hard to lay down Jacks full! Mark wrote: The ranking of your hand should not have any bearing on how it is played. What is important is the strenght of your hand against your opponents possible/probable hands. On the turn, it would be very possible for your hand to be the worst one. | ||
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| Re: Would you have folded this FH?, modestmice, 12. Oct 2003 16:13 | ||
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| well, yeah, ive folded in that spot, but like u said and like i said at the table, "its hard to fold_____" fill blank. what i think about when an ace pairs the board is "im screwed" and that is without a second thought. especially in this hand. but SHOULD u call? its a personal decision. sometimes i feel i got a shot, sometime i dont and fold. the last time, i called all the way hoping in vain for quads (lol) usually u know yer beat though and it just a question of pot odds/implied odds on whether to call. as long as your correct in this, if u drag the pot, its less important. on 12. Oct 2003 10:10 mkpoker wrote: > Just finished a very frustrating session at UB. Playing at a table with the > truest maniac I've ever seen...raised EVERY hand pre-flop and probably stayed in > 75% of pots until the river--often with nothing. This wonderful set-up > corresponded to perhaps the worst run of cards I've ever received...but those > are stories for the Bad Beat section. > > So from MP, I'm dealt QJh (maniac is directly across the table in LP). A MP > player in front of me open-limps, I limp. Maniac LP raises. BB calls MP calls, > I call. MP to my right is a solid player. > > Flop is JJA. MP checks. I bet. Maniac raises (which means nothing). BB > folds, mp calls. I reraise. All call. Turn is A, giving me Jacks full. MP > now bets out (his first lead). He's very much the type to play Ace-face, which > would give him Aces full. What's worse, if I decide to call him down, the > maniac behind us might raise (with anything), which would force me to call > double and triple bets to the end. > > My gut says fold, but I choke it down and call. Maniac folds, to my surprise. > River is a blank. MP bets. I call. He shows AQ. > > What factors went into my decision to call? > > The pot was big...which begs for calling MP down. But his betting pattern > pointed to Aces-full fairly clearly, which argues for a fold. Also, having the > maniac in the pot might have forced me to make big bets to call down > (fortunately, this possibility didn't materialize), which begs for a fold. And > the final factor may be this: It's just damn hard to lay down Jacks full! > > So what do you think...should I have folded here? | ||
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| Re: Would you have folded this FH?, noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 11:12 | ||
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| Yes you should have folded, PRE-FLOP! You know there is a maniac in the game, do you really like QJ in a raised pot? If another decent player calls into that raised pot, do you think your QJ is likely the best hand going in? Even suited, you are not likely to get enough players in, or at least you can't know that unless you are in late position, to be in there in a raised pot. I like any pair, preferably 77s or better unless there are several callers, or any A with a reasonable kicker better than a hand like QJ with the maniac in there, ie, something that can stand some action. Even if you flop trips, there's the danger of AQ or AJ. Once you are in and you get a flop like the one you did, you are pretty much pot stuck, unless you can make the tough laydown, but the error that traps you all of those bets is playing that hand in the first place. Good luck! Hope I don't come off as too harsh, but this whole poker thing is an ongoing learning experience for all of us. | ||
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| Re: Would you have folded this FH?, modestmice, 13. Oct 2003 19:24 | ||
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| so u muck QJ suited to a raise from a maniac? i disagree with that blanket statement. also, ill take high suited connecters over 77 88 99 anyday ina loose game. but anyway, i think he had a good understanding of the players in this spot to call and see how he hit the flop. on 13. Oct 2003 11:12 noiseboy wrote: > Yes you should have folded, PRE-FLOP! You know there is a maniac in the game, do you > really like QJ in a raised pot? If another decent player calls into that raised pot, > do you think your QJ is likely the best hand going in? Even suited, you are not > likely to get enough players in, or at least you can't know that unless you are in > late position, to be in there in a raised pot. > > I like any pair, preferably 77s or better unless there are several callers, or any A > with a reasonable kicker better than a hand like QJ with the maniac in there, ie, > something that can stand some action. Even if you flop trips, there's the danger of > AQ or AJ. Once you are in and you get a flop like the one you did, you are pretty > much pot stuck, unless you can make the tough laydown, but the error that traps you > all of those bets is playing that hand in the first place. > > Good luck! Hope I don't come off as too harsh, but this whole poker thing is an > ongoing learning experience for all of us. | ||
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| Re: Would you have folded this FH?, noiseboy, 14. Oct 2003 10:11 | ||
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| Well if I had the maniac to my right, I might try to reraise to get everyone out with some hands that I normally don't 3-bet. In the situation you are in, I'm not so worried about the maniac, but he might "herd you into the nuts". In other words, you start to play weaker hands because the maniac is in, but when other players who aren't maniacs catch on that the other guy will bet the hand for you, they start to take advantage of that. When I know that almost every hand is going to be raised, I try to focus on hands that I like in a raised pot of which QJs is not included unless I can anticipate four or five people in. The reason I prefer the middling pairs to a hand like QJ is because I know there is going to be a lot of action and a pair can stand more of it, depending on how the flop comes. I like your play from the flop onwards, but I just think you should be sure you are getting multiway before entering with drawing hands when you know it's going to be raised. | ||
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