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here's one for ya, KJo, 11. Oct 2003 18:39
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Here's a general strategy question, partially based on a hand I played last night.

It's a 4-8 game, typical SoCal loose passive game. You've got 88 in the SB, 5 people see the flop for one bet, flop is T82 with two diamonds and one club (you have none). All but one call one bet on the flop. Turn is 5c, so now there are two flush draws on the board, not to mention the possibility of a straight draw from the flop. Since this is a typical loose passive game, it's practically a guarantee that at least one of the other players are on a draw, and you've got the best hand.

So you bet out on the turn. Two others limp,, and the button raises. It's pretty clear that you have the button beat, who likely has two pair or a smaller set. Do you:

A. Reraise, trapping the limpers in for another bet (and given the loose-passive nature, they will call anything if they're on flush or open-ended straight draws)

or

B. Call, and wait until the river to check-raise or check-call, depending on if the draws get busted. Reason being to wait to put some real money into the pot when you know you have the other guy beat and he has to call, and you're not going to get sucked out on (basically wait for the scary kids to go away).

Any thoughts?

Eli
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Re: here's one for ya, Swagman, 11. Oct 2003 18:41
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Make em pay to play. Essentially create the biggest pot you can if the flush draw never arrives. The possibility of having the best had whether the flush comes is still a reality, and even if it doesnt come you hand can improve. Pump up the pot especially if it is as loose as you say it is.
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Re: here's one for ya, Schuster, 11. Oct 2003 18:52
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Are people going to keep putting money in the pot if they miss their flush draw? Sell your hand while you still have some customers who want to pay for it. You're a big money favorite in this hand and you should put as much in there as possible.

Lee
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Re: here's one for ya, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 18:55
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re- raise. easy one for me. make them pay anytime u currently have or think you the best of it, the "edge". and certainly if u have players u think will over call. no brainer


on 11. Oct 2003 18:39 KJo wrote:
> Here's a general strategy question, partially based on a hand I played last
> night.
>
> It's a 4-8 game, typical SoCal loose passive game. You've got 88 in the SB, 5
> people see the flop for one bet, flop is T82 with two diamonds and one club (you
> have none). All but one call one bet on the flop. Turn is 5c, so now there are
> two flush draws on the board, not to mention the possibility of a straight draw
> from the flop. Since this is a typical loose passive game, it's practically a
> guarantee that at least one of the other players are on a draw, and you've got
> the best hand.
>
> So you bet out on the turn. Two others limp,, and the button raises. It's
> pretty clear that you have the button beat, who likely has two pair or a smaller
> set. Do you:
>
> A. Reraise, trapping the limpers in for another bet (and given the
> loose-passive nature, they will call anything if they're on flush or open-ended
> straight draws)
>
> or
>
> B. Call, and wait until the river to check-raise or check-call, depending on
> if the draws get busted. Reason being to wait to put some real money into the
> pot when you know you have the other guy beat and he has to call, and you're not
> going to get sucked out on (basically wait for the scary kids to go away).
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Eli
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Re: here's one for ya, Blade, 11. Oct 2003 20:20
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hmmm, I don't think it is as clear a decision as others make it out to be but I do agree.

The case against raising is that while you do have the best hand at the moment that facts are that A) there are opponents with drawing hands that are better. B) in low limit reraising will not drive out any drawing players thus will no effect on your chances of winning the pot. (1 of the 2 reasons for raising)

Also it is very likely in the type of game you are playing that there is atleast one person on a str8 draw and atleast one a flush draw. Now here is a question I do not know the answer to. When someone has an open ended straight draw & a flush draw they are a slight favorite to make one of there hands. In this case the winning the hand. Therefore I would think that if you knew you were up against this it would be incorrect to raise in a hand in which you are favored to lose. The question is when against mulitple players one of which is on a open ended straight draw and one of which is on a flush draw, even though you have the best hand at the time are you actually an underdog to win the hand? I would think the anwser is yes, although I do not know for sure. If so then is it still correct to put more money into a pot when you know you are not the favorite to win? Note that in this case then you will lose more times then you win.

However I believe that one difference is that if you raise and if everyone calls you are getting an better than 1-1 return for your money. I believe in this case it was 3-1. Thus this return makes it a profitable decision to raise.

So like I said the decision is the same but I think it is extremely important to think through why it is correct to raise even though you most likely will not win.

This is all just an intuitive guess so I would greately appreciate comments of my line of thinking from with more wisdom than myself.

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Re: here's one for ya, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 20:25
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because you have a strong hand and are favored to win this hand at this point. the outcome is less important here (as it usually is) than how to play it properly. u may lose to a fush hitting on the river, but it is correct to re raise on the turn with the best hand.

on 11. Oct 2003 20:20 Blade wrote:
> hmmm, I don't think it is as clear a decision as others make it out to be but I do
> agree.
>
> The case against raising is that while you do have the best hand at the moment that facts
> are that A) there are opponents with drawing hands that are better. B) in low limit
> reraising will not drive out any drawing players thus will no effect on your chances of
> winning the pot. (1 of the 2 reasons for raising)
>
> Also it is very likely in the type of game you are playing that there is atleast one
> person on a str8 draw and atleast one a flush draw. Now here is a question I do not know
> the answer to. When someone has an open ended straight draw & a flush draw they are a
> slight favorite to make one of there hands. In this case the winning the hand. Therefore
> I would think that if you knew you were up against this it would be incorrect to raise in
> a hand in which you are favored to lose. The question is when against mulitple players
> one of which is on a open ended straight draw and one of which is on a flush draw, even
> though you have the best hand at the time are you actually an underdog to win the hand? I
> would think the anwser is yes, although I do not know for sure. If so then is it still
> correct to put more money into a pot when you know you are not the favorite to win? Note
> that in this case then you will lose more times then you win.
>
> However I believe that one difference is that if you raise and if everyone calls you are
> getting an better than 1-1 return for your money. I believe in this case it was 3-1.
> Thus this return makes it a profitable decision to raise.
>
> So like I said the decision is the same but I think it is extremely important to think
> through why it is correct to raise even though you most likely will not win.
>
> This is all just an intuitive guess so I would greately appreciate comments of my line of
> thinking from with more wisdom than myself.
>
>
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Re: here's one for ya, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 20:31
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also, please explain why you believe he is an underdog on the turn, im not seeing it. he has trips, presumably they are on draws (we dont know for sure on the turn what they are doing) how can you be a dog to anything but a openended str flush? a str or flush draw he would be the underdog to trips, right? hmmm who knows


on 11. Oct 2003 20:25 modestmice wrote:
> because you have a strong hand and are favored to win this hand at this point. the outcome is
> less important here (as it usually is) than how to play it properly. u may lose to a fush
> hitting on the river, but it is correct to re raise on the turn with the best hand.
>
> on 11. Oct 2003 20:20 Blade wrote:
> > hmmm, I don't think it is as clear a decision as others make it out to be but I do
> > agree.
> >
> > The case against raising is that while you do have the best hand at the moment that facts
> > are that A) there are opponents with drawing hands that are better. B) in low limit
> > reraising will not drive out any drawing players thus will no effect on your chances of
> > winning the pot. (1 of the 2 reasons for raising)
> >
> > Also it is very likely in the type of game you are playing that there is atleast one
> > person on a str8 draw and atleast one a flush draw. Now here is a question I do not know
>
> > the answer to. When someone has an open ended straight draw & a flush draw they are a
> > slight favorite to make one of there hands. In this case the winning the hand. Therefore
>
> > I would think that if you knew you were up against this it would be incorrect to raise in
> > a hand in which you are favored to lose. The question is when against mulitple players
> > one of which is on a open ended straight draw and one of which is on a flush draw, even
> > though you have the best hand at the time are you actually an underdog to win the hand? I
>
> > would think the anwser is yes, although I do not know for sure. If so then is it still
> > correct to put more money into a pot when you know you are not the favorite to win? Note
>
> > that in this case then you will lose more times then you win.
> >
> > However I believe that one difference is that if you raise and if everyone calls you are
> > getting an better than 1-1 return for your money. I believe in this case it was 3-1.
> > Thus this return makes it a profitable decision to raise.
> >
> > So like I said the decision is the same but I think it is extremely important to think
> > through why it is correct to raise even though you most likely will not win.
> >
> > This is all just an intuitive guess so I would greately appreciate comments of my line of
> > thinking from with more wisdom than myself.
> >
> >
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Re: here's one for ya, Blade, 11. Oct 2003 20:48
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As I said this is a guess so it is entirely possible that I am wong. But what I am saying is that the combination of the straight draw combined with the flush draw is the equilivalent of playing against someone on a open ended straight flush draw which I remember right is 51% favorite to make the hand.

Thus I believe that more times than not the player with trips will not win the hand. However he will win more than anyone single player assuming none are on the open ended straight flush draw.

Perhaps the use of the term favorite is the problem. Yes you are a favorite over anyone single player, but you are an underdog the collective opponents.

Something which should be mentioned is that some of their outs will pair the board giving you the full house. Raising the turn may get more bets on the river from someone with a weak flush. The reason being that if he bets the fluah and you raise he may think you have a better flush and just call.

However if you raise the turn and he then makes his flush he may become so pleased at making his flush he could reraise the river (you had raised turn so this is just a repeat of your previous action) do to an unwillingness to accept that his made hand is now beat. Especially true with A high flush.

This all assumes that you are not up against trip 10's, in which case you are F'd anyway you cut it.
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Re: here's one for ya, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 20:51
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i didnt thing u were wrong, just didnt understand the whole deal. now its more clear along with Lee's post...

on 11. Oct 2003 20:48 Blade wrote:
> As I said this is a guess so it is entirely possible that I am wong. But what I am saying is that the
> combination of the straight draw combined with the flush draw is the equilivalent of playing against
> someone on a open ended straight flush draw which I remember right is 51% favorite to make the hand.
>
> Thus I believe that more times than not the player with trips will not win the hand. However he will
> win more than anyone single player assuming none are on the open ended straight flush draw.
>
> Perhaps the use of the term favorite is the problem. Yes you are a favorite over anyone single player,
> but you are an underdog the collective opponents.
>
> Something which should be mentioned is that some of their outs will pair the board giving you the full
> house. Raising the turn may get more bets on the river from someone with a weak flush. The reason
> being that if he bets the fluah and you raise he may think you have a better flush and just call.
>
> However if you raise the turn and he then makes his flush he may become so pleased at making his flush
> he could reraise the river (you had raised turn so this is just a repeat of your previous action) do to
> an unwillingness to accept that his made hand is now beat. Especially true with A high flush.
>
> This all assumes that you are not up against trip 10's, in which case you are F'd anyway you cut it.
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Re: here's one for ya, Swagman, 12. Oct 2003 02:02
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Its not a 51 percent chance, but closer to 35 percent. However this is just all hypthetical thinking, becuase you don't know that anyone is on a flush or straight draw. What you do know is that you likely have the best hand at the flop.

I'll even put in more simply. If your in a loose passive game, and you have a strong hunch your hand is the best then pump your best hand, and never slow down each and every time, until someone makes you a believer in Christ.
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Re: here's one for ya, modestmice, 12. Oct 2003 02:17
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thats what i was thinking, but wasnt sure about all the odds. im not a math guy.

on 12. Oct 2003 02:02 Swagman wrote:
> Its not a 51 percent chance, but closer to 35 percent. However this is just all hypthetical thinking, becuase
> you don't know that anyone is on a flush or straight draw. What you do know is that you likely have the best
> hand at the flop.
>
> I'll even put in more simply. If your in a loose passive game, and you have a strong hunch your hand is the
> best then pump your best hand, and never slow down each and every time, until someone makes you a believer in
> Christ.
>
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Re: here's one for ya, Schuster, 11. Oct 2003 20:47
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Worst case he is up against one of each flush draw and a straight draw. In that case, yes he would be less than 50% to win, but he's getting 3 to 1 on every bet he puts in there, and he's much better than 3 to 1 against to win the hand.

Lou Krieger wrote an article in cardplayer about a month ago concerning "money odds". It's the same reason why you might want to jam the pot on the flop with the nut flush draw if there are many callers. You aren't favored to win, but with all the people putting in all the bets, the overlay you're getting makes you money.

For another example, say you hold AA on the button before the flop. UTG raises, the next player reraises, and the next 5 people call. You're less than 50% to win here, but you still want to get as much money in the pot as possible, because you have the best individual chance of winning.

Lee
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Re: here's one for ya, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 20:50
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gotcha. so re raise, but the why is different

on 11. Oct 2003 20:47 Schuster wrote:
> Worst case he is up against one of each flush draw and a straight draw. In that case, yes he
> would be less than 50% to win, but he's getting 3 to 1 on every bet he puts in there, and he's
> much better than 3 to 1 against to win the hand.
>
> Lou Krieger wrote an article in cardplayer about a month ago concerning "money odds". It's
> the same reason why you might want to jam the pot on the flop with the nut flush draw if there
> are many callers. You aren't favored to win, but with all the people putting in all the bets,
> the overlay you're getting makes you money.
>
> For another example, say you hold AA on the button before the flop. UTG raises, the next
> player reraises, and the next 5 people call. You're less than 50% to win here, but you still
> want to get as much money in the pot as possible, because you have the best individual chance
> of winning.
>
> Lee
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Re: here's one for ya, KJo, 11. Oct 2003 21:19
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Lee and Modest, you guys have hit upon the $8 question that faced me when I played this hand. Yes, a set is a clear favorite against a straight or flush draw, and the principle of getting most of your money in when you have the best of it is good, but is it still a favorite against two or more draws? Only one of 3 draws has to hit for someone to get it, and there were 3 legitimate draws out there. It requires a better statistical mind than mine to figure out, if it can be at all.

A good understanding of the nature of a LL SoCal game is important, people could be playing any damn hand and will hang with any draw (gutshots included). In my similar hand (I say similar just because I don't remember all the details of the hand, but this was close enough), I called the turn and check-raised the river, the others folded, and the button showed down 22 for a lower set. I saw my move as a way to combat the typical problems of a loose game by keeping my involvement lower until I had more of a sure thing, knowing that I could likely check-raise the river.

Eli

on 11. Oct 2003 18:39 KJo wrote:
> Here's a general strategy question, partially based on a hand I played last
> night.
>
> It's a 4-8 game, typical SoCal loose passive game. You've got 88 in the SB, 5
> people see the flop for one bet, flop is T82 with two diamonds and one club (you
> have none). All but one call one bet on the flop. Turn is 5c, so now there are
> two flush draws on the board, not to mention the possibility of a straight draw
> from the flop. Since this is a typical loose passive game, it's practically a
> guarantee that at least one of the other players are on a draw, and you've got
> the best hand.
>
> So you bet out on the turn. Two others limp,, and the button raises. It's
> pretty clear that you have the button beat, who likely has two pair or a smaller
> set. Do you:
>
> A. Reraise, trapping the limpers in for another bet (and given the
> loose-passive nature, they will call anything if they're on flush or open-ended
> straight draws)
>
> or
>
> B. Call, and wait until the river to check-raise or check-call, depending on
> if the draws get busted. Reason being to wait to put some real money into the
> pot when you know you have the other guy beat and he has to call, and you're not
> going to get sucked out on (basically wait for the scary kids to go away).
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Eli
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Re: here's one for ya, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 21:25
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kool. im in the bay area and the players are about the same up here, and i do the same kinda thing sometimes, waiting til no flush card/str card shows up to checkraise. but i also wonder if it was correct to play like that or if i was just being gun shy. i guess its in the air. but i think u would have for sure made 3 more bets on this by re raising the turn. the draws are gonna call and the set will call there and the river. but i understand your reasoning


on 11. Oct 2003 21:19 KJo wrote:
> Lee and Modest, you guys have hit upon the $8 question that faced me when I played
> this hand. Yes, a set is a clear favorite against a straight or flush draw, and the
> principle of getting most of your money in when you have the best of it is good, but
> is it still a favorite against two or more draws? Only one of 3 draws has to hit for
> someone to get it, and there were 3 legitimate draws out there. It requires a better
> statistical mind than mine to figure out, if it can be at all.
>
> A good understanding of the nature of a LL SoCal game is important, people could be
> playing any damn hand and will hang with any draw (gutshots included). In my similar
> hand (I say similar just because I don't remember all the details of the hand, but
> this was close enough), I called the turn and check-raised the river, the others
> folded, and the button showed down 22 for a lower set. I saw my move as a way to
> combat the typical problems of a loose game by keeping my involvement lower until I
> had more of a sure thing, knowing that I could likely check-raise the river.
>
> Eli
>
> on 11. Oct 2003 18:39 KJo wrote:
> > Here's a general strategy question, partially based on a hand I played last
> > night.
> >
> > It's a 4-8 game, typical SoCal loose passive game. You've got 88 in the SB, 5
> > people see the flop for one bet, flop is T82 with two diamonds and one club (you
>
> > have none). All but one call one bet on the flop. Turn is 5c, so now there are
>
> > two flush draws on the board, not to mention the possibility of a straight draw
> > from the flop. Since this is a typical loose passive game, it's practically a
> > guarantee that at least one of the other players are on a draw, and you've got
> > the best hand.
> >
> > So you bet out on the turn. Two others limp,, and the button raises. It's
> > pretty clear that you have the button beat, who likely has two pair or a smaller
>
> > set. Do you:
> >
> > A. Reraise, trapping the limpers in for another bet (and given the
> > loose-passive nature, they will call anything if they're on flush or open-ended
> > straight draws)
> >
> > or
> >
> > B. Call, and wait until the river to check-raise or check-call, depending on
> > if the draws get busted. Reason being to wait to put some real money into the
> > pot when you know you have the other guy beat and he has to call, and you're not
>
> > going to get sucked out on (basically wait for the scary kids to go away).
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Eli
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Re: here's one for ya, KJo, 11. Oct 2003 22:09
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Modest- I'm originally from the Bay Area, where do you play up there?


Eli

on 11. Oct 2003 21:25 modestmice wrote:
> kool. im in the bay area and the players are about the same up here, and i do the same
> kinda thing sometimes, waiting til no flush card/str card shows up to checkraise. but i
> also wonder if it was correct to play like that or if i was just being gun shy. i guess
> its in the air. but i think u would have for sure made 3 more bets on this by re raising
> the turn. the draws are gonna call and the set will call there and the river. but i
> understand your reasoning
>
>
> on 11. Oct 2003 21:19 KJo wrote:
> > Lee and Modest, you guys have hit upon the $8 question that faced me when I played
> > this hand. Yes, a set is a clear favorite against a straight or flush draw, and the
> > principle of getting most of your money in when you have the best of it is good, but
> > is it still a favorite against two or more draws? Only one of 3 draws has to hit for
>
> > someone to get it, and there were 3 legitimate draws out there. It requires a better
>
> > statistical mind than mine to figure out, if it can be at all.
> >
> > A good understanding of the nature of a LL SoCal game is important, people could be
> > playing any damn hand and will hang with any draw (gutshots included). In my similar
>
> > hand (I say similar just because I don't remember all the details of the hand, but
> > this was close enough), I called the turn and check-raised the river, the others
> > folded, and the button showed down 22 for a lower set. I saw my move as a way to
> > combat the typical problems of a loose game by keeping my involvement lower until I
> > had more of a sure thing, knowing that I could likely check-raise the river.
> >
> > Eli
> >
> > on 11. Oct 2003 18:39 KJo wrote:
> > > Here's a general strategy question, partially based on a hand I played last
> > > night.
> > >
> > > It's a 4-8 game, typical SoCal loose passive game. You've got 88 in the SB, 5
> > > people see the flop for one bet, flop is T82 with two diamonds and one club (you
> >
> > > have none). All but one call one bet on the flop. Turn is 5c, so now there are
> >
> > > two flush draws on the board, not to mention the possibility of a straight draw
> > > from the flop. Since this is a typical loose passive game, it's practically a
> > > guarantee that at least one of the other players are on a draw, and you've got
> > > the best hand.
> > >
> > > So you bet out on the turn. Two others limp,, and the button raises. It's
> > > pretty clear that you have the button beat, who likely has two pair or a smaller
> >
> > > set. Do you:
> > >
> > > A. Reraise, trapping the limpers in for another bet (and given the
> > > loose-passive nature, they will call anything if they're on flush or open-ended
> > > straight draws)
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > B. Call, and wait until the river to check-raise or check-call, depending on
> > > if the draws get busted. Reason being to wait to put some real money into the
> > > pot when you know you have the other guy beat and he has to call, and you're not
> >
> > > going to get sucked out on (basically wait for the scary kids to go away).
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Eli
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Re: here's one for ya, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 22:17
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everywhere man! from sonoma joes in petaluma (my hometown) to bay 101, artichoke joes , casino san pablo, etc
bay101 is probably the closest to LA cardrooms

on 11. Oct 2003 22:09 KJo wrote:
> Modest- I'm originally from the Bay Area, where do you play up there?
>
>
> Eli
>
> on 11. Oct 2003 21:25 modestmice wrote:
> > kool. im in the bay area and the players are about the same up here, and i do the same
> > kinda thing sometimes, waiting til no flush card/str card shows up to checkraise. but i
> > also wonder if it was correct to play like that or if i was just being gun shy. i guess
> > its in the air. but i think u would have for sure made 3 more bets on this by re raising
> > the turn. the draws are gonna call and the set will call there and the river. but i
> > understand your reasoning
> >
> >
> > on 11. Oct 2003 21:19 KJo wrote:
> > > Lee and Modest, you guys have hit upon the $8 question that faced me when I played
> > > this hand. Yes, a set is a clear favorite against a straight or flush draw, and the
> > > principle of getting most of your money in when you have the best of it is good, but
> > > is it still a favorite against two or more draws? Only one of 3 draws has to hit for
> >
> > > someone to get it, and there were 3 legitimate draws out there. It requires a better
> >
> > > statistical mind than mine to figure out, if it can be at all.
> > >
> > > A good understanding of the nature of a LL SoCal game is important, people could be
> > > playing any damn hand and will hang with any draw (gutshots included). In my similar
> >
> > > hand (I say similar just because I don't remember all the details of the hand, but
> > > this was close enough), I called the turn and check-raised the river, the others
> > > folded, and the button showed down 22 for a lower set. I saw my move as a way to
> > > combat the typical problems of a loose game by keeping my involvement lower until I
> > > had more of a sure thing, knowing that I could likely check-raise the river.
> > >
> > > Eli
> > >
> > > on 11. Oct 2003 18:39 KJo wrote:
> > > > Here's a general strategy question, partially based on a hand I played last
> > > > night.
> > > >
> > > > It's a 4-8 game, typical SoCal loose passive game. You've got 88 in the SB, 5
> > > > people see the flop for one bet, flop is T82 with two diamonds and one club (you
> > >
> > > > have none). All but one call one bet on the flop. Turn is 5c, so now there are
> > >
> > > > two flush draws on the board, not to mention the possibility of a straight draw
> > > > from the flop. Since this is a typical loose passive game, it's practically a
> > > > guarantee that at least one of the other players are on a draw, and you've got
> > > > the best hand.
> > > >
> > > > So you bet out on the turn. Two others limp,, and the button raises. It's
> > > > pretty clear that you have the button beat, who likely has two pair or a smaller
> > >
> > > > set. Do you:
> > > >
> > > > A. Reraise, trapping the limpers in for another bet (and given the
> > > > loose-passive nature, they will call anything if they're on flush or open-ended
> > > > straight draws)
> > > >
> > > > or
> > > >
> > > > B. Call, and wait until the river to check-raise or check-call, depending on
> > > > if the draws get busted. Reason being to wait to put some real money into the
> > > > pot when you know you have the other guy beat and he has to call, and you're not
> > >
> > > > going to get sucked out on (basically wait for the scary kids to go away).
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > Eli
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Re: here's one for ya, noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 11:29
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One thing, you shouldn't worry nearly as much about the backdoor flush, because there is a good chance nobody is drawing to that.
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Re: here's one for ya, KJo, 13. Oct 2003 13:17
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What, are you kidding? Have you ever played at Commerce on a Friday night? :)

Not only would I expect to see someone go after a backdoor flush, I expect them to do it with 83s.

Eli

on 13. Oct 2003 11:29 noiseboy wrote:
> One thing, you shouldn't worry nearly as much about the backdoor flush, because there is a
> good chance nobody is drawing to that.
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Re: here's one for ya, Mark, 12. Oct 2003 13:57
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Hi KJ

I would definately raise with the set. With a big pot, your first objective should be to win it any way you can. You want to force as many players out of the hand as you can. It would be horrible if you didn't raise and some joker with a 63 offsuit hit a 4 the river to make gutshot str8.

You have a great hand, and are a favorite to win, so you should be pumping the pot as much as possible. Even though there are alot of draws out agaisnt you, you are in a + EV situation.

Also, something great could still happen on the river. If the river card is a 3 flush card that pairs the board, you will be making multiple bets on the river.

Mark
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Re: here's one for ya, Boftx, 13. Oct 2003 11:16
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Right off the the top, you have 10 outs or about a 3.5:1 dog to improve. Assuming 2 draws against you (normal in SoCal as you say) each is about a 4:1 dog to hit, add the two draws together and they become a 2:1 dog to hit. You remain a favorite, but I would just call and see if the river brings the draw home. As you implied, nothing will push the draws out on the turn.
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Re: here's one for ya, noiseboy, 13. Oct 2003 11:28
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I think you reraise! Charge them to draw out on you. Also, if a flush card comes and someone bets into you on the river after you have 3-bet the turn, at least you can be almost certain they have it.
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