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Server Time: 12/1/2008 2:21:51 PM PACIFIC |
 Hand analysis please, iceman5, 11. Oct 2003 12:51 | ||
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| Im in the BB with AA. UTG limps, MP limps, SB folds, I raise. UTG and MP both call. Flop comes KQ6 rainbow. I bet, UTG calls, MP raises. Hes a very average player. I think he has KQ but he could easily have KJ or maybe even AK although he probably wouldve raised preflop with AK. Personally I wouldve raised preflop in MP with KQ so he may have KJ. Anyway, I call his raise as does the UTG. Turn is another 6 giving me A's and 6's whichI believe is the best hand. I know the MP will bet so I check raise. This knocks out the UTG but MP calls. River is another Q. Now if he has KQ Im dead meat. I figure its 60% that he has KQ, 20% for AK and 20% for KJ. He bets so I call getting 11-1 although Im pretty sure Im beat which of course I was. Did I play this right? And was the call at the river correct? | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, Schuster, 11. Oct 2003 13:02 | ||
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| I would have 3 bet the flop. If you have the best hand, you get money in there and knock out the middle limper. If you don't, you'll find out pretty quick and can play accordingly. Other than that, your play was fine. I like the checkraise on 4th street. I may have bet the river, depending on my opponent. KQ just seems pretty improbable to miss out on a bet by playing scared. Lee | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, Angel, 11. Oct 2003 13:10 | ||
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| I'm curious why you said you thought the MP had KQ on the flop. The reason that I ask is that alot of people fear a hand - and then they go from being afraid their opponent has a hand to thinking they have it. You said that he was an average player; while I don't know what limits you are playing - average players in most games are going to have a larger reportoire of hands that they believe is worth a raise in that spot than AK, KQ and KJ. For instance, JT or even KT - did you think of these hands and disregard them based on some information that didn't come out in your post? Based on the percentages of MP's likely holding that you presented - calling on the river is definately correct - although you have to hate the Q. | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, iceman5, 11. Oct 2003 13:26 | ||
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| I had seen him play alot of hands like K7s but he was pretty much of a calling station when he had a high pair, which is why I thought he had KQ for top 2 pair. He coulve had KT also but from what I saw I dont think he wouldve raised the preflop raiser with that. | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, 4 POKER, 11. Oct 2003 13:30 | ||
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| Hi iceman, I think there could have been several possible holdings that the MP could have raised you with, but that depends on what his starting hands requirements are (given his position), and what he's capable of raising you with on the flop, and how he 'plays' his hands as well. Was he an aggresive player that would raise on an open end straight draw? (perhaps he limped in with J-10). That is one possibility. He also could have limped in with pocket sixes and decided to fastplay it due to the texture of the board, ie, high cards plus a coordinated board. That's another possible holding. Then, (which I'm just bringing up for analyzing purposes), when he turned quads, there was no reason for him to raise you (though personally, I would have IF I gave you a big holding also). However, if the hand you indeed put him on was most likely KQ, then you played it correctly on the flop and the turn. But... because there could have been several hands in which he doesn't beat you with, some being busted draws, and some being top pair,(J-10, KJ, K-10, A-10, etc.)....then your check call play on the river is warranted. If you put him on a busted draw and you lead at the river....he can't call you. If he does have a hand that beats you....he will raise you for sure if you lead at it. But because your hand is still good enough (imo) to make the pay off with....then I would check call as you chose to do. Only because there are hands that you can have beat here in this spot, and if he has made a bluff bet now (because he missed his draw), by checking it to him can induce that bluff bet, whereas a lead out bet will not gain you anything "unless" he's capable of raising you with nothing. So given all of the possible holdings that he (possibly) would have played the same way........I think you have to call; and the check call play can gain you the most when you have the best hand, while also allowing you to save the most when you are beat. Knowing your opponents is important....but when these types of situations arise, (and you have a hand that still may be the best hand), deciding on whether to 'make' that extra check call on the river (especially when the pot has grown to a substantial size, and that this was a heads up situation)........is something that you have to consider making as well. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, iceman5, 11. Oct 2003 13:50 | ||
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| 4POKER, Excellent analysis as usual. Thanks for taking the time. Would you play a small PP that way? Raising into high cards I mean? I could easily have AK, AQ,KJs, AA,KK, or any number of other hands that beat a small PP. Or are you just talking about him having 66 and flopping the set? | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, 4 POKER, 11. Oct 2003 13:59 | ||
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| I was talking about him having 6-6 only, and how he (possibly) could have chose to play it. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 17:03 | ||
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| 4 Poker, excellent post . of course even before i read your post, i just said "yes" to iceman. caus i knew if u already posted it was probably concise, well thought out and correct, so why bother...but from know on im just gonna let you post and only respond if i disagree! on 11. Oct 2003 13:30 4 POKER wrote: > Hi iceman, > > I think there could have been several possible holdings that the MP could have > raised you with, but that depends on what his starting hands requirements are (given > his position), and what he's capable of raising you with on the flop, and how he > 'plays' his hands as well. Was he an aggresive player that would raise on an open > end straight draw? (perhaps he limped in with J-10). That is one possibility. > > He also could have limped in with pocket sixes and decided to fastplay it due to the > texture of the board, ie, high cards plus a coordinated board. That's another > possible holding. Then, (which I'm just bringing up for analyzing purposes), when he > turned quads, there was no reason for him to raise you (though personally, I would > have IF I gave you a big holding also). > > However, if the hand you indeed put him on was most likely KQ, then you played it > correctly on the flop and the turn. But... because there could have been several > hands in which he doesn't beat you with, some being busted draws, and some being top > pair,(J-10, KJ, K-10, A-10, etc.)....then your check call play on the river is > warranted. > > If you put him on a busted draw and you lead at the river....he can't call you. > If he does have a hand that beats you....he will raise you for sure if you lead at > it. But because your hand is still good enough (imo) to make the pay off with....then > I would check call as you chose to do. Only because there are hands that you can have > beat here in this spot, and if he has made a bluff bet now (because he missed his > draw), by checking it to him can induce that bluff bet, whereas a lead out bet will > not gain you anything "unless" he's capable of raising you with nothing. > > So given all of the possible holdings that he (possibly) would have played the same > way........I think you have to call; and the check call play can gain you the most > when you have the best hand, while also allowing you to save the most when you are > beat. > > Knowing your opponents is important....but when these types of situations arise, > (and you have a hand that still may be the best hand), deciding on whether to 'make' > that extra check call on the river (especially when the pot has grown to a > substantial size, and that this was a heads up situation)........is something that > you have to consider making as well. > > 4P- | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 16:56 | ||
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| yes. on 11. Oct 2003 12:51 iceman5 wrote: > Im in the BB with AA. UTG limps, MP limps, SB folds, I raise. UTG and MP both > call. Flop comes KQ6 rainbow. I bet, UTG calls, MP raises. Hes a very average > player. I think he has KQ but he could easily have KJ or maybe even AK although > he probably wouldve raised preflop with AK. Personally I wouldve raised preflop > in MP with KQ so he may have KJ. Anyway, I call his raise as does the UTG. > Turn is another 6 giving me A's and 6's whichI believe is the best hand. I know > the MP will bet so I check raise. This knocks out the UTG but MP calls. River > is another Q. Now if he has KQ Im dead meat. I figure its 60% that he has KQ, > 20% for AK and 20% for KJ. He bets so I call getting 11-1 although Im pretty > sure Im beat which of course I was. Did I play this right? And was the call at > the river correct? | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, MozMan, 11. Oct 2003 18:14 | ||
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| Hey Iceman- First, I think I would reraise the flop. You can get a lot of information out him by doing this. If he caps, then he is on KQ and has top-2-pair, if he just calls, then he either has top pair with a good kicker and is testing you, or could be on a draw (which is what I think). Then, you bet into him on the turn. Keep the pressure on and see how he responds. A player will most often give youy information when you are applying pressure. Then, bet into him again on the river. If he busted his draw, he can't pay you off. -Moz "The more you ignore me, the closer I get. You're wasting your time." | ||
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| Re: Hand analysis please, Boftx, 13. Oct 2003 11:40 | ||
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| Why do you think MP was on a draw? I would have assumed the KQ also. I would also speculate that MP had our hero on Axs or medium PP, not the AA he had (how many times does anyone ever put BB on AA?) | ||
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