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Server Time: 12/1/2008 12:16:00 PM PACIFIC |
 Positioned next to MANIAC, socal_1111, 11. Oct 2003 01:11 | ||
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| I've read a few posts about which is better position to be in compared to the table maniac. The flavor of the posts were very, "it's an individual decision." Well, I have had this GUY at my table the last few nights and I can say, w/out a doubt, being on his immediate left was the answer for me! I felt like I was always in control of the situation and could read him much easier. Obviously, I don't have as much experience as most of you... so what have you learned in regards to this subject? Having him on my right allowed me to react to him and make decisions accordingly. Is this just an individual thang? Watch think? Thank you. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, PairTheBoard, 11. Oct 2003 01:42 | ||
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| I like having him on my right. The upside of this is that he will be my most frequent opponent and when he is I will always have position on him. That is except for the blinds. He will be raising and reraising many of my blinds from his late position and when I have the cards to defend he will always have position on me. Many maniacs will save their extreme agression for late position. If it wasn't for blind play it would be a no brainer having him on my right where I can reraise him with my premium hands. imo this is such an advantage that it outweighs the pressure on my blinds. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, Angel, 11. Oct 2003 01:46 | ||
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| There are benefits to both positions. Depending upon your individual style you may find that your preference is one or the other but it is worthwhile to use both to your advantage as there will be times that you don't have a choice. Here are one advantage each: Certainly you can see how having him on your right is helpful; you can see what action he is going to take before you must act on your hand. If he is on your left you can use him to shut people out of the pot so that you can have what figures to be an inferior hand heads up. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, Flatout_Mainiac, 11. Oct 2003 02:58 | ||
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| I also like them to my immediate right. The reason for me is that I feel more comfortable playing my draw hand since the maniac isn't playing after me and make a raise less of a factor. Also if raises into you can try isolate him by re-raising. I don't think I'm a good enough player yet to have him on my left and not wish he was on my right. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, Swagman, 11. Oct 2003 04:19 | ||
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| The position you discribed is opitimal because it provides the best overall use of the table generalship | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, WilliamS, 11. Oct 2003 07:04 | ||
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| Rolf has a good article on this subject in card player magazine. Check out their archived articles and you'll find it. He says that having him to your right as (almost) everyone suggests is usually good, but has some big drawbacks. He gives lots of pros and cons to sitting left of the maniac and right of the maniac. The only drawback of the article is it pertains to big pot limit games more than the ones I play in. Will | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 18:03 | ||
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| pot limit is rolfs game and this is a completly diff animal. a lot of this manic stuff won't matter at a loose table where isolating him wont work, everybodies trying to get a piece of the dude. on 11. Oct 2003 07:04 WilliamS wrote: > Rolf has a good article on this subject in card player magazine. Check out their > archived articles and you'll find it. He says that having him to your right as > (almost) everyone suggests is usually good, but has some big drawbacks. He gives > lots of pros and cons to sitting left of the maniac and right of the maniac. The > only drawback of the article is it pertains to big pot limit games more than the ones > I play in. > > Will | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, Swagman, 11. Oct 2003 18:38 | ||
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| Yep Rolf is often going against conventional wisdom. And he is right with his ascertation concerning this as well. He is one of the few people that I regularly read in Cardplayer magazine, because he's not afraid to debunk the normal Bologne that is out there concerning Poker playing. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, mkpoker, 11. Oct 2003 07:30 | ||
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| I think the ideal position has less to do with the maniac than with the other players at the table. Namely: 1. If reraising the maniac will successfully isolate (i.e. the other players at the table won't call a 3-bet cold without a monster), you should always want the maniac on your right. That way, you can isolate against him whenever you'd like; BUT 2. If the other players in the game want to play, too, and will make loose 3-bet calls, the advantage of having the maniac act before you is diminished. At these looser tables, you're better with the maniac on your right. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, WilliamS, 11. Oct 2003 07:34 | ||
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| MK, That is one of the main points in Rolf's article. If the other players see you three betting the maniac preflop and see it as an isolation play you end up investing a lot of money with a "semi mediocre hand". Where if you are in front of the maniac and trust him to reraise you preflop you can actually isolate the maniac more efficiently from in front. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, PairTheBoard, 11. Oct 2003 13:11 | ||
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| I'm not seeing this. If the loose players are not afraid to call your 3 bets they should be even less afraid to call 3 bets by the maniac. Your 3 bets will still be much more selective than his I would think. With the maniac on your right you will maximize the scenarios where you play in last position and can see all the action in front of you. With the maniac on your left you will practically never be playing in last position. jmo | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, Rich P., 11. Oct 2003 14:30 | ||
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| Your point is sort of a logical error. You assume that the other players at the table will think as you do. My experience bares out that in some loose games ones isolation raises simply won't work. There are probably many reasons for this, but one is that many players just love to be a big pot. When they see a big pot coming, they want in regardless of the strenght of their hands. In these situations, I prefer to be to the maniac's left, not so much to use him to isolate him (the maniac may not cooperate) but to trap instead. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, PairTheBoard, 11. Oct 2003 17:53 | ||
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| I was responding to the assertion that in a loose game it would be easier to isolate against the maniac by being on his right and letting him do the reraising. That just doesn't make sense to me. I agree with your point that in such a game, isolating against the maniac is not such a big factor. But it remains advantageous to be on his left. Last position is ALWAYS the best position for controlling the play, whether it is for trapping, isolating or just responding to all the action in front of you. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, PairTheBoard, 11. Oct 2003 23:02 | ||
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| You know what? I'm going to RETRACT my previous opinions given on this thread and reissue an ammended one. While I still believe it is always advantageous to act last, it's possible that the best way to do that might actually be by sitting to the right of the maniac! Consider the situation mentioned by several people where the game is loose and people will routinely cold call 3 bets. When you are to the left of the maniac and not on the button, your reraise of the maniac will often be cold called by one or more players behind you. Now for the rest of the hand you are in the uncomfortable position of getting whipsawed between the maniac and those behind you. The maniac bets and you may be in a dilemma. Your hand is good enough to call or even raise the maniac, but such that you would prefer to check to those behind you. You cannot do both. Now consider this. VIRTUAL last position may in fact be to the maniac's immediate right. Why? Because the maniac basically is nearly always first to act. People routinely check to the maniac because they know he never misses a bet. Being to the right of the maniac is like being on the button with the maniac putting out a blind bet in first position every round. You check, he bets, and now you get to see ALL the action all the way around the table before you have to act or risk any money. The downside to this is that he may not be the total maniac he seems. He actually can play a little and his automatic bets and raises may not be all that automatic or dependable. In fact, by always checking to him you may find yourself ceding control of the play to him. If you nearly always check and only bet your strongest hands he may pick up on this and learn to get out of your way. You soon begin to feel the discomfort of being out of position against him. I guess I'm still trying to figure it out. lol | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, modestmice, 12. Oct 2003 04:26 | ||
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| a little snippet from a lou k. article i came across: The biggest winners in these games were seated to the immediate left of the weak players, which ought to settle any remaining debate about whether it is advantageous to act before or after weak opponents. If your opponents are weak primarily because they call when they ought to fold, these simulations show that it is very advantageous to act after them. on 11. Oct 2003 23:02 PairTheBoard wrote: > You know what? I'm going to RETRACT my previous opinions given on this thread and > reissue an ammended one. While I still believe it is always advantageous to act last, > it's possible that the best way to do that might actually be by sitting to the right > of the maniac! Consider the situation mentioned by several people where the game is > loose and people will routinely cold call 3 bets. When you are to the left of the > maniac and not on the button, your reraise of the maniac will often be cold called > by one or more players behind you. Now for the rest of the hand you are in the > uncomfortable position of getting whipsawed between the maniac and those behind > you. The maniac bets and you may be in a dilemma. Your hand is good enough to call > or even raise the maniac, but such that you would prefer to check to those behind > you. You cannot do both. > > Now consider this. VIRTUAL last position may in fact be to the maniac's immediate > right. Why? Because the maniac basically is nearly always first to act. People > routinely check to the maniac because they know he never misses a bet. Being to the > right of the maniac is like being on the button with the maniac putting out a blind > bet in first position every round. You check, he bets, and now you get to see ALL the > action all the way around the table before you have to act or risk any money. > > The downside to this is that he may not be the total maniac he seems. He actually > can play a little and his automatic bets and raises may not be all that automatic or > dependable. In fact, by always checking to him you may find yourself ceding control > of the play to him. If you nearly always check and only bet your strongest hands he > may pick up on this and learn to get out of your way. You soon begin to feel the > discomfort of being out of position against him. > > I guess I'm still trying to figure it out. lol | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, modestmice, 12. Oct 2003 04:27 | ||
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| i should also say that maniacs are always weak calling stations on 12. Oct 2003 04:26 modestmice wrote: > a little snippet from a lou k. article i came across: > The biggest winners in these games were seated to the immediate left of the weak players, > which ought to settle any remaining debate about whether it is advantageous to act before > or after weak opponents. If your opponents are weak primarily because they call when they > ought to fold, these simulations show that it is very advantageous to act after them. > > > > > > > > on 11. Oct 2003 23:02 PairTheBoard wrote: > > You know what? I'm going to RETRACT my previous opinions given on this thread and > > reissue an ammended one. While I still believe it is always advantageous to act last, > > > it's possible that the best way to do that might actually be by sitting to the right > > of the maniac! Consider the situation mentioned by several people where the game is > > loose and people will routinely cold call 3 bets. When you are to the left of the > > maniac and not on the button, your reraise of the maniac will often be cold called > > by one or more players behind you. Now for the rest of the hand you are in the > > uncomfortable position of getting whipsawed between the maniac and those behind > > you. The maniac bets and you may be in a dilemma. Your hand is good enough to call > > or even raise the maniac, but such that you would prefer to check to those behind > > you. You cannot do both. > > > > Now consider this. VIRTUAL last position may in fact be to the maniac's immediate > > right. Why? Because the maniac basically is nearly always first to act. People > > routinely check to the maniac because they know he never misses a bet. Being to the > > right of the maniac is like being on the button with the maniac putting out a blind > > > bet in first position every round. You check, he bets, and now you get to see ALL the > > > action all the way around the table before you have to act or risk any money. > > > > The downside to this is that he may not be the total maniac he seems. He actually > > can play a little and his automatic bets and raises may not be all that automatic or > > dependable. In fact, by always checking to him you may find yourself ceding control > > of the play to him. If you nearly always check and only bet your strongest hands he > > > may pick up on this and learn to get out of your way. You soon begin to feel the > > discomfort of being out of position against him. > > > > I guess I'm still trying to figure it out. lol | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, PairTheBoard, 12. Oct 2003 12:23 | ||
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| I don't think maniacs are "weak" calling stations. They will call down nearly all attempts to bluff over them but their calls are acts of "toughness" in defending their agression. They fall into the category of "overly agressive" rather than "weak". imo | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, modestmice, 12. Oct 2003 16:16 | ||
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| i know on 12. Oct 2003 12:23 PairTheBoard wrote: > I don't think maniacs are "weak" calling stations. They will call down nearly all attempts to bluff > over them but their calls are acts of "toughness" in defending their agression. They fall into the > category of "overly agressive" rather than "weak". imo | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, modestmice, 12. Oct 2003 16:20 | ||
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| what your not getting is that these types are not always one type. many many maniacs are overly aggressive pre flop and on the flop. then turn into WEAK PASSIVE and check call to the river when even they know they their 2-3 os cant win, but call if they hit a 2 on the flop. lol. anyhow, many players exhibit 2 types of these poker stereotypes in a hand. on 12. Oct 2003 16:16 modestmice wrote: > i know > > on 12. Oct 2003 12:23 PairTheBoard wrote: > > I don't think maniacs are "weak" calling stations. They will call down nearly all attempts to bluff > > over them but their calls are acts of "toughness" in defending their agression. They fall into the > > category of "overly agressive" rather than "weak". imo | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, modestmice, 12. Oct 2003 16:22 | ||
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| i personally am a maniacal loose aggressive tight rock. on 12. Oct 2003 16:20 modestmice wrote: > what your not getting is that these types are not always one type. > many many maniacs are overly aggressive pre flop and on the flop. then turn into WEAK PASSIVE and check call > to the river when even they know they their > 2-3 os cant win, but call if they hit a 2 on the flop. lol. > anyhow, many players exhibit 2 types of these poker stereotypes in a hand. > > on 12. Oct 2003 16:16 modestmice wrote: > > i know > > > > on 12. Oct 2003 12:23 PairTheBoard wrote: > > > I don't think maniacs are "weak" calling stations. They will call down nearly all attempts to bluff > > > over them but their calls are acts of "toughness" in defending their agression. They fall into the > > > category of "overly agressive" rather than "weak". imo | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, PairTheBoard, 12. Oct 2003 18:37 | ||
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| LOL Point Taken. All in all I think I still will aim for getting the maniac on my right as I originally oppined. I'm wondering if it might be better having him a couple of seats away though, rather on on my immediate right. Less pressure on my blinds maybe. Still, I've never heard the concept of "Virtual Button" before - I just made it up. There may be something to it in loose games with the maniac on your immediate left. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, modestmice, 12. Oct 2003 18:45 | ||
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| i totally agree,(usually) maniac on the right of you. the poker simulations that lou krieger did, where the money won over time was highest for the player being on the left of "weak" players in general, shows that poker is positional game. we all know that though. nuff said. n 12. Oct 2003 18:37 PairTheBoard wrote: > LOL > > Point Taken. > > All in all I think I still will aim for getting the maniac on my right as I originally oppined. I'm wondering if it > might be better having him a couple of seats away though, rather on on my immediate right. Less pressure on my blinds > maybe. > > Still, I've never heard the concept of "Virtual Button" before - I just made it up. There may be something to it in > loose games with the maniac on your immediate left. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, LJH, 12. Oct 2003 18:06 | ||
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| SOCAL YOU ARE CORRECT HAVE THE MANIAC ON YOUR RIGHT LJH | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC, Rolf Slotboom, 12. Oct 2003 18:54 | ||
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| Thanks for your kind words, guys (Swagman, William S). Having a maniac in the game, while fun and often highly profitable, can cause you a lot of troubles, and in the article you guys mention I have tried to analyze the pros and cons of having the maniac on your immediate right or left. But my words here are nothing more than just an opinion, and I know that famous player / authors like Roy Cooke and Lou Krieger actually advocate the seat I'm not too fond of: the one to the immediate left of the maniac (i.e., with the maniac on your immediate right). And for a large part they are probably right, because especially if people respect your three-bets this seat HAS some merits (you may end up heads up, in position against a random hand, meaning that even if your own hand is not that strong, it figures to be best by far). That said, in the games I like to choose with lots of action and quite a few people wanting to see the flop, this seat might not be that good anymore, for the reasons stated in the article. BTW, it discusses not just big-bet play but limit hold'em as well and yes, it can still be found in the Cardplayer archives. Regards, Rolf. | ||
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| Re: Positioned next to MANIAC (ROLF), WilliamS, 13. Oct 2003 05:45 | ||
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| Rolf, This is the first time I've seen you post. I'm really glad you did. I hope you become a regular contributor here; as I really enjoy your articles in Card Player Magazine. Your insights are fresh and well thought out. As far as this issue concerning position next to a maniac, I think the stand by answer of "it depends" is the obvious answer. As nearly everyone points out, being left of the maniac is the usual choice, but as you've pointed out in SOME games the seat to the right is the more profitable one. I think this only reinforces we have to look at each situation as unique and fit the CONCEPTS of what we know to each situation rather than blindly playing by a rigid set of rules. Nice to see you here, Will | ||
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