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Server Time: 12/1/2008 1:08:00 PM PACIFIC |
 KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, mkpoker, 10. Oct 2003 22:40 | ||
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| That darned river play still vexes me. In this hand I called a river bet, but I think I should have raised...I hate feeling like I left that one bet on the table. What would you have done in my shoes (and any other comments welcome, of course)? 5/10 HE Online. The table is loose, with some crazy calls being made. From EP, I'm dealt KsKh--best hand all night! 1 fold to me. I open-raise. 3 calls (including both blinds). Board comes 2s7sTs. 2 checks to me. I bet right out to protect my overpair. All call. Turn is 5s, giving me the 2nd nut flush. SB bets out (his first lead). BB folds. I call, hoping the MP caller will call also, but he folds. Even in retrospect, I think this is the right turn play, yes? River comes 5c, pairing 5s on the board. SB bets out again. Here's my dilemma: To raise or just call? If he's got the As or any FH, I'm beat. The FH seems a longshot, but people in this game were calling with any A, so the nut-flush seems possible. A bit fearful...I call (which I now think was a mistake). He turns over KcQs...the 3rd nut flush, which I beat. UPFers, in this situation, holding the 2nd nut flush on a paired board, would you raise the river, or just call? | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, Blade, 10. Oct 2003 22:56 | ||
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| I don't see anyway you can fold to a reraise so I think you have to just call. You are beat by a couple of hands. | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, modestmice, 10. Oct 2003 23:05 | ||
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| i would just call. on 10. Oct 2003 22:40 mkpoker wrote: > That darned river play still vexes me. In this hand I called a river bet, but I > think I should have raised...I hate feeling like I left that one bet on the > table. What would you have done in my shoes (and any other comments welcome, of > course)? > > 5/10 HE Online. The table is loose, with some crazy calls being made. From > EP, I'm dealt KsKh--best hand all night! 1 fold to me. I open-raise. 3 calls > (including both blinds). > > Board comes 2s7sTs. 2 checks to me. I bet right out to protect my overpair. > All call. Turn is 5s, giving me the 2nd nut flush. SB bets out (his first > lead). BB folds. I call, hoping the MP caller will call also, but he folds. > Even in retrospect, I think this is the right turn play, yes? > > River comes 5c, pairing 5s on the board. SB bets out again. Here's my > dilemma: To raise or just call? If he's got the As or any FH, I'm beat. The > FH seems a longshot, but people in this game were calling with any A, so the > nut-flush seems possible. A bit fearful...I call (which I now think was a > mistake). > > He turns over KcQs...the 3rd nut flush, which I beat. UPFers, in this > situation, holding the 2nd nut flush on a paired board, would you raise the > river, or just call? | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, 4 POKER, 10. Oct 2003 23:13 | ||
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| Hey mkpoker, I would have played it the same way on the turn and the river. With a four flush present on the turn.....if you raise it there, and someone holds the nut flush, it's only going to cost you extra bets. The possibility of someone holding the Ace of spades should be a concern to you when there's a multi-way pot. You already have a made hand (although it's not the nuts)......I would welcome callers behind me who might pay off with smaller flushes. (and there's no need to protect a hand, when all you could be is clearly beaten by the higher flush). The river play should be the same. There's no need to raise it here. In fact....the river card could hurt you even 'more' now, that the board is paired. If you shouldn't raise it on the turn (for the reasons stated of the four flushed board), then why would you want to raise it on the river when someone could have rivered a full house? When a player bets out from an upfront position, if he has the Ace of spades,or better... you're beat. If someone behind you has the nut flush, or even better than that.....you'll be costing yourself more bets as well. (So your raise will have no merit to it). If you just call there.....the same thing could happen as I stated on the turn. Perhaps someone behind you will overcall with a smaller flush. You don't want to shut them out if they might be willing to pay off one big bet, because....if you "do" hold the best hand, you'll make more money that way. If you don't hold the best hand, and you raise it....you will only be leaving yourself to go up against someone with the better hand, and you might have to pay more bets. With the combination of the four flushed board, and a paired board, makes this situation incorrect to raise for value. This is NOT "one of those times" to raise the river! Well played mk. Don't have second thoughts about it. 4P- | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, Angel, 11. Oct 2003 00:26 | ||
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| Just want to add my agreement to 4 POKER's post - no sense me writing it all down since he captured my thoughts on the matter perfectly. | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 02:12 | ||
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| Just wanted to say, that was a long post to say "just call" like i did, lol. nice way to get into the details of why 4 poker....its actually really kool that some of the pros here take time to do this kinda thing. on 11. Oct 2003 00:26 Angel wrote: > Just want to add my agreement to 4 POKER's post - no sense me writing it all down > since he captured my thoughts on the matter perfectly. | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, 4 POKER, 11. Oct 2003 02:47 | ||
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| Hey modestmice, (lol)! The reason why I gave him a long response is because he wants to know "why" the calls are correct/incorrect, etc., etc.. This helps us to analyze the hand a little bit more clearly, and it can possibly lead to more open discussion about it, too..... I love this game! 4P- | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 03:10 | ||
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| i know why you know why and now we all know why we know what we know.. on 11. Oct 2003 02:47 4 POKER wrote: > Hey modestmice, > > (lol)! > > The reason why I gave him a long response is because he wants to know "why" the calls are > correct/incorrect, etc., etc.. This helps us to analyze the hand a little bit more clearly, and > it can possibly lead to more open discussion about it, too!...... > > I love this game! > > 4P- > | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, Flatout_Mainiac, 11. Oct 2003 03:02 | ||
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| I bet if you raised it he would have showed you AsJd. | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, grant pittman, 11. Oct 2003 08:46 | ||
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| mkpoker I agree with just calling here as you did. The hand illustrates a situation that frequently occurs in poker that I constantly see solid players misplaying. One of the "weapons" that winners in poker all have is that they win extra bets with marginal hands when they feel it is LIKELY they are ahead. Passive players and weak hand readers have no shot against these players. However, a lot of winning players "hang themselves" in the type of situation we are talking about and they do it using the very same weapon that usually makes them money. They bet (or in this case raise) hoping to win ONE bet when in fact they will frequently be risking 2 extra bets to win one or even worse NONE!!!! The math in the situation has you winning an extra bet a relatively small percentage of the time and losing 2 bets a much higher percentage of the time. The situation also plays poorly when your opponent can lay down a hand and will fold a smaller flush or is bluffing the pot. Here you risk a bet for no return. Overall it's a horribly bet and many winning players make it without knowing how bad they are getting their money in. Just a thought. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, 4 POKER, 11. Oct 2003 09:55 | ||
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| Excellent post! 4P- on 11. Oct 2003 08:46 grant pittman wrote: > mkpoker I agree with just calling here as you did. The hand illustrates a situation that > frequently occurs in poker that I constantly see solid players misplaying. One of the > "weapons" that winners in poker all have is that they win extra bets with marginal hands > when they feel it is LIKELY they are ahead. Passive players and weak hand readers have no > shot against these players. However, a lot of winning players "hang themselves" in the > type of situation we are talking about and they do it using the very same weapon that > usually makes them money. They bet (or in this case raise) hoping to win ONE bet when in > fact they will frequently be risking 2 extra bets to win one or even worse NONE!!!! The > math in the situation has you winning an extra bet a relatively small percentage of the > time and losing 2 bets a much higher percentage of the time. The situation also plays > poorly when your opponent can lay down a hand and will fold a smaller flush or is bluffing > the pot. Here you risk a bet for no return. Overall it's a horribly bet and many winning > players make it without knowing how bad they are getting their money in. Just a thought. > GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, Rich P., 11. Oct 2003 14:57 | ||
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| Just something to consider: When the SB bet the turn, what did you put him on? I think that's why you're having trouble with this hand. You don't know whether he's got the As or not. So why not raise the turn and try to find out? While I think the other posters points are valid, you may have actually missed two bets rather than one. Here's my point: The odds that he has the As is actually rather small. There was only one card that could beat you yet you turned fearful and passive. Reraise him. If he just calls, then maybe you could bet the river knowing that he couldn't reraise the turn. If,however, he reraises the turn, then you have to seriously consider the As and call or fold depending upon your confidence in your read. Of course, the points the other's make about your opponents folding are valid, but if your opponents had two pair and got there, you've given them a discount. The pot is rather large already. Winning the pot quickly is a good thing. | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, mkpoker, 11. Oct 2003 17:26 | ||
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| When SB led out (for the first time in the hand) after the 4-flush hit the board, I was quite certain he held a flush--but I couldn't guess how high. I was (perhaps overly) concerned about the nut-flush, because SB was an "any ace" player with a habit of staying to the river with overcards. I couldn't put him on a specific hand, but AJ, AQ, AT, QK, KJ, 99, (all with one spade) were possibilities I considered. I called because there was still one player behind me, and I wanted to keep him in. Had he held any medium spade, I figured he'd call a single bet, but would fold to a raise. (The player after me folded, so I figure he didn't have any spades). At that time, it was my plan to raise on the river, but when the board paired and SB bet out again (even though I figured a flush was more likely than a FH), I chose to call. | ||
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| Re: KK Backdoor Flush...Comment Please, modestmice, 11. Oct 2003 17:56 | ||
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| you can never be "overly" concerned about the nut flush being out there. its ok to be prudent. ive been beat (and everyone here) enuf to worry a lot in fact. many players do not throw away any ace. which might explain why im second best so often with my khigh flush...heh... funny story. i had the ace in the same situation (no paired board) and i raise raise and get re raised on the river with a board of : 3s 4s Js 2d river....7s he re raised me with 5-6s for the hard to see str flush. i re raised him once before i realized im an idiot, he hit the str flush. goes to show you, always gotta be paranoid or at least aware of what can beat you. caron 11. Oct 2003 17:26 mkpoker wrote: > When SB led out (for the first time in the hand) after the 4-flush hit the board, I was > quite certain he held a flush--but I couldn't guess how high. I was (perhaps overly) > concerned about the nut-flush, because SB was an "any ace" player with a habit of staying > to the river with overcards. I couldn't put him on a specific hand, but AJ, AQ, AT, QK, > KJ, 99, (all with one spade) were possibilities I considered. > > I called because there was still one player behind me, and I wanted to keep him in. Had > he held any medium spade, I figured he'd call a single bet, but would fold to a raise. > (The player after me folded, so I figure he didn't have any spades). > > At that time, it was my plan to raise on the river, but when the board paired and SB bet > out again (even though I figured a flush was more likely than a FH), I chose to call. | ||
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