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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:39:14 AM PACIFIC |
 Online Holdem Etiquette, Bart Mann, 10. Oct 2003 07:31 | ||
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| Good morning. I’m not new to poker (been playing live Holdem for about 5 years now), but I am new to the online gaming experience. Earlier this week I set up my first online account at UltimateBet.com, and have put in about 6 hours total over the last three nights. Two out of the three nights, something happened that I thought was a bit rude. Last night and the night before I lost very large heads-up pots. In the first one I was all-in, and in the second one I was the table chip leader and set a short stack all-in. In both cases I was “rivered,” which in all honesty is not a big deal to me. It happens to everyone, and if you play poker long enough you realize that things even out and you get to hand out the bad beat once in awhile too. But in both cases, the person who took down the large pot immediately left the table and did not return. My contention is that a) this is rude, and b) this is not smart on the part of the player who leaves. To me, it’s rude because there’s always the expectation in poker that if someone lays a huge beating on you, you’ll have at least a few opportunities to get your money back (imagine if a buddy of yours did this to you at a home game--beat you, then refused to play). It’s also an unintelligent and unsophisticated play in my opinion, because if the player were smart he would stick around to see if I go on tilt due to the bad beat—and take further advantage of my increasingly poor play. I’m guessing that this is not an uncommon occurrence in online poker, and I should probably just get used to it. But I’m looking for other takes. Anyone care to chime in? - Bart - | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Eman, 10. Oct 2003 07:39 | ||
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| Get used to it. Online poker is not your friendly home game. I see people come in and out of tables all the time. They win one hand and leave. Ive seen this one guy on UB (forgot his screenname), play three tables at once and if he wins a decent hand, he finds another table. He just keeps rotating for table to table. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Ingise_Eesti, 10. Oct 2003 07:46 | ||
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| Try playing an online SNG and the fun really starts!!! Just played one where a guy went all-in on the first hand and took out 2 other players. He sat out the rest of the tourny (he was still there, chatting to his buddy) and took 3rd spot. This kind of thing happens all the time, unfortunately. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, shorn, 10. Oct 2003 07:47 | ||
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| I see this mostly at the PL and NL tables Bart. A lot of folks go tere with the idea that if they double there buy-in, they willget up and leave (I like to call them drive-by's). It is something you will have to get used to if you continue to play online unfortunately. But, the good news is that there was probably another player as equally bad on the waiting list to come right in and sit on down, so stay positive. :) | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Bart Mann, 10. Oct 2003 08:01 | ||
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| No problems staying positive. Last night I tripled up at the $.10/$.25 NL table. On the third hand of the night I caught quad deuces (on the flop), slow-played to the river and caught two people trying to make a move with big overpairs. I ended up catching two players all-in (KK and AA), and for the rest of the night I got to be the table gorilla. The pot I lost last night to the table jumper was probably 20% of my stack, but I made it back later. Boy it's fun when you win! | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, TAKEDOWN, 10. Oct 2003 08:27 | ||
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| Just the nature of the game and smart play in my opinion in the low limit games where bad players can only be beaten with good cards. If I get a run of good cards and double up on my buy in, it's reasonable to figure that good cards only come so long so I end my session as well before the bad cards come and I have to give it all back. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Bart Mann, 10. Oct 2003 08:43 | ||
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| I've read a number of posts from professional players at this site, and they're always consistent about when to leave a table--when the dynamics of the game have become bad, when you become emotional, or when (for a number of reasons) you don't feel like you're playing your best poker. I've never heard a professional advocate leaving a table "because you're ahead"--which leads me to believe that it is not a smart move. After just taking down a huge pot, how can anyone say that these conditions have been met? Unless, of course, the player believes he is ahead because he's simply getting lucky--in which case a slot machine might be a better alternative than a poker table. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Mark Barnett II, 10. Oct 2003 09:13 | ||
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| a slightly different spin on this, while it is true that over the infinately long run *cant remember Roy's exact wording* EV will win out, none of us live long enough to see those results *close probably but not exact*. when people mention reasons for leaving a table they bury or gloss over the positive reasons to leave *negative being that over time you are no longer favored to win money at that table because of people, fatigue, tilt whatever*. perfect example several years ago i sat down at my very first 10-20 game, it was at the Mirage in Vegas, i bought in for $500 and i was prepared to sit there for a few hours playing *serious* poker for the first time ever *the fallacy of better players at higher stakes* my wife was nearby playing slots, i sit down and before half a dozen hands are dealt i get pocket ladies, i played them like i should and won 200+ on that one hand i immediatly got up and left the table went and had dinner with the wife and was walking on air for hours afterwards. why leave? i had won a nice chunk of change i was exceedingly happy at that moment and i would have been pissed at myself if i had slowly given my win back and more. as much as we hate to admit it life>poker learn to know your positives and negatives use them to your advantage and try to not let others use them against you, whether a game has positive expectation or not is only one reason to leave a table as long as you realize what you are giving up by leaving. *as someone posted elsewhere spending time with kids/spouse is probably much more valuable than that 1BB an hour you could be earning* | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Bart Mann, 10. Oct 2003 09:43 | ||
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| I can absolutey agree with you that given the particular situation, it was the best thing for you to do--time with the wife, free dinner, experiencing other things in Vegas, good vibrations, etc. But if you're going to play poker on any type of regular basis and try to churn out a positive result year after year, you're going to hurt yourself by setting a "win threshold" more often than not . . . aren't you? | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Mark Barnett II, 10. Oct 2003 12:53 | ||
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| oh absolutely 100% you are giving up expectation, the question is how valuable is that expectation to you versus other intangible things? if you are playing poker as a source of income, that has to weigh more heavily as a factor than if you are not. all im saying is that dont forget the positive aspects of leaving a table, however you want to assign priority to each and every reason for leaving is upto you but ignoring the fact that you might feel super for hours and hours after a big win and just in general feel better about the world is just as bad as ignoring that the table has changed and you are no longer a favorite | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Grateful Rooster, 10. Oct 2003 13:33 | ||
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| on 10. Oct 2003 08:27 TAKEDOWN wrote: If I get a run of good cards and > double up on my buy in, it's reasonable to figure that good cards only come so long > so I end my session as well before the bad cards come and I have to give it all back. I'm sorry, but this is faulty logic. The cards (or online, the RNG) do not have a memory. Each hand is independant from the one before. You have the same chance of getting "good cards" whether you won the last 20, lost 20 or just sat down. Also, the notion that winning LL online is totally card (or luck) dependent can be refuted by the many UPF contributors who regularly win on these tables. If you read the contributions, I don't think you will come to the conclusion that these are just a bunch of lucky shlubs. LL is different, but beatable if you know what to look for. Bart, it sounds like you have it about right. I don't believe drive bys to be a particularly smart or profitable strategy, unless you think you're playing video poker. Online, there's always someone else with a wad of cash waiting to sit down. GR | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Big_Loser1, 10. Oct 2003 10:41 | ||
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| People leaving tables after a big hit happens all the time online. You have to remember that some people are just playing for fun and they made some money and want to get out. I agree this is bad etiquette and try to stay away from it. Another reason I think is because online it is so easy to move to this game to that game. I am constantly looking for a better table to play. If I take a big pot right before I'm about to leave, I usually stick around for another round or two. I like to use the buddy list too. When I find players like that who hit and run, I'll find them in another room and take there money there. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, 4 POKER, 10. Oct 2003 10:54 | ||
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| Hi Bart, Personally, I don't think it's bad etiquette to hit and run games when you're playing on-line poker. You may not like it, but....... Even if one particular player wins a big pot and then bolts... (whether it be from you or somebody else).......they'll always be another player who'll be waiting to fill his seat, and 'that player' could be the one who you want in your game! (Think of that way and try to stay positive). I'm constantly switching games if the game I'm playing in at the present time gets bad, and that's what some of the perks are when you're playing on-line poker.......Game selection, and table selection, and to never have to wait long for a game that could be alot better then the one you're already at. Take advantage of it. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, 3FingerJack, 10. Oct 2003 12:32 | ||
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| There has been a lot of talk about "drive by" players who bolt after hitting one big pot. What about all the "drive by" players who miss and jack there $$ off? I see the latter way more then I see the former. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Andrew Wells, 12. Oct 2003 16:25 | ||
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| I was sitting in a LL hold'em game at Planet a few months back where the chat coming from this one player was that s/he had won some 42 consecutive times. Told us that s/he did this by leaving whenever ahead. Went through $50 and then another $20 before deciding to quit. 42 wins 1 loss and possibly net minus for the effort. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Bart Mann, 13. Oct 2003 07:39 | ||
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| He he he . . . | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, LJH, 10. Oct 2003 11:16 | ||
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| BART, DID YOU CONSULT MISS MANNERS. ANYONE CAN SIT IN FOR ONE HAND AT ANYTIME AND THEN LEAVE AFTER WINNING BIG AND IT IS NOT RUDE, BUT IF YOU DO THAT AT B AND M THE HOUSE MAY TELL YOU NOT TO COME BACK. LJH | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Bart Mann, 10. Oct 2003 11:47 | ||
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| I guess the definition of "rude" is in the eye of the beholder. When it happens to me (B&M or online), I consider it rude. Apparently others do not. When someone takes a huge chunk of my stack and then immediately bolts, I have a hard time saying to myself "Oh well, I guess he can leave if he wants to." My initial reaction is more along the lines of "Where the h*ll do you think you're going?" You're a better man than I . . . | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Grateful Rooster, 10. Oct 2003 13:50 | ||
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| Guess the problem is that most software won't let you a put a gun on the table to enforce etiquette. That etiquette is really more relevant to BM play, where you'd have to wait for another guy to come along and plop his cash down. Way I look at it is, once the money is bet, it is no longer mine. I'm investing, and it either pays or it doesn't. If another guy wins, it's his moola. If it's not a bad beat, I try and learn a lesson. If you take it personal in any way, you probably won't be playing your best game. Try tournies or even SNGs if you want players to hang around for a while. GR | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Boftx, 22. Dec 2003 13:42 | ||
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| I would say get over it. Show me where it is etched in stone that you have a right to have a chance to win money from someone. And it's no longer your money, it's *his* money you are trying to win. I try to avoid hit-and-run, but quite simply, if I make a big hand, or rather if I win substantially over normal expectation in a very short time, I will in all likelyhood leave the table on my next big blind and enjoy a movie. Jim | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, ManicStarSeed, 10. Oct 2003 13:32 | ||
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| I would like to chime in here. First I am a beginning player. Online is the ONLY place that I can play and aquire experience. Second I currently have a very busy life. I am remodleing my kitchen and need to help out my wife with our newborn son. She works from home and this is her crunch time (pre Halloween). In short... My time constraints really limit how much time I get to play. Now what does this have to do with anything... If I want to play, I am lucky to get 1 solid hour during a week. Often I get only a half an hour or so a day. My initial investment was $100, For the first week or so, I was +/- 50 at any given time. Then schedule realy began to crush me and had to bail out of games because the baby was fussy or my help was needed. The lack of focused attention cost me big time. I sank $200 keeping my bankroll viable (I play 1/2 HE games on UB). I would be getting into a game and 20 minutes later, down $20, I have to bail so I can feed my son. This really added up. Have that happen 5 nights a week and you can see the horrible leak. On the flip side, I won $16 while making coffee then left the game to serve it up. Another time I left a game I doubled up while eating dinner. After dinner, I had to go back to work. I felt guilty about leaving during these "Up" moments, but such is life. I have paid (and likely will continue to pay) the price for my fickle reality. I realize that I probably appear to many as a drive by, but really, It is hard to play poker with a baby crying in your face. If I am up, I leave, If I am down, I leave. But you will never know why. Point is that I am really struggling with the etiquette issues of this, but in all reality I would rather walk the edge of this knife rather than not play at all. Mss | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette-MANIAC, mrbippy, 10. Oct 2003 16:46 | ||
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| I feel your pain. My wife and I also have a new child, 4 months old now. We do the baby relay around 1400 when she comes home from work and I go to work. Ive had days where I have lost several rounds of blinds never playing a hand when I gotta go feed the youngin. Adds up over time. I played poker with tarot cards the other night. I got a full house and four people died.-Steven Wright | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, e-babes, 12. Oct 2003 09:26 | ||
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| Guy has a right to leave whenever he wants. Not likely his departure could break up the table or the game. Maybe he had to be somewhere else. e-babes | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, LJH, 21. Oct 2003 09:05 | ||
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| BART, HOW CAN HIS LEAVING BE RUDE. HE HAS THE RIGHT TO LEAVE AT ANY TIME. WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT HIIM RUDE IF HE LEFT AFTER BEATING SOMEONE ELSE. LJH | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Bart Mann, 21. Oct 2003 09:58 | ||
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| Yes, I would. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Carson Horton, 21. Dec 2003 15:37 | ||
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| I have to repsectfully disagree...There are only two reasons that I can think of to play online...A) to get experience and B) to make money. If I'm there to make money, I don't see what obligation I have to give you a chance to win back your money, nor you me. At the online games I have played in I think it is wise to cycle in and out of different games. Personally I do it with regularity as it seems to me that the good hands sort of circulate around the table from player to player anyway...Once you have been the beneficiary of a few decent hands and hopefully won a pot or two it's time take the money and run... You know the old line about "know when to fold 'em"...Well I believe that applies to your seat at the table too. If you sit there long enough you will in all probability end up watching your newfound windfall wither away, especially if you are playing online because as you may have experienced yourself, online poker gives a whole new meaning to the term "bad beat ". Personally, I think one of the only truly good reasons to play online is because it is so easy to move about from table to table and site to site. As you are probably well aware it is often hard to get a seat at a decent game at all in the better card rooms. And when you do you are likely as not to find one seat availabe to you right next to a four pack a day chain-smoker... | ||
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| Dude, are you using a time machine?, hokie95, 21. Dec 2003 15:50 | ||
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| Or does nothing in the last 2 months interest you? Just wondering.... | ||
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| Re: Dude, are you using a time machine?, Carson Horton, 21. Dec 2003 19:29 | ||
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| Why do you care? | ||
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| Re: Dude, are you using a time machine?, Carson Horton, 21. Dec 2003 19:31 | ||
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| why do you care? | ||
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| Attention K-Mart Shoppers!!, hokie95, 22. Dec 2003 07:06 | ||
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| We are running a blue light special in the humor department. Senses thereof are half-off. If you have a special someone on your list who needs one, c'mon down to the humor department, located next to men's socks in Aisle 3. | ||
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| Re: Attention K-Mart Shoppers!!, guinnessman, 22. Dec 2003 08:18 | ||
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| That's not funny. Guinnessman | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette-Carson, Blade, 21. Dec 2003 18:22 | ||
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| "as it seems to me that the good hands sort of circulate around the table from player to player anyway...Once you have been the beneficiary of a few decent hands and hopefully won a pot or two it's time take the money and run... " LMAO You should consider switching to Black Jack, where rabits feet and other talisman's are an accepted part of the game. -May the bridges I burn light my way -Blade | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette-Carson, Carson Horton, 21. Dec 2003 19:30 | ||
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| Thanks for the advice smart-ass | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette-Carson, Blade, 21. Dec 2003 21:38 | ||
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| I know can't help it Peraps it would better if your logic consisted of more than reference to a Kenny Roger's song. -May the bridges I burn light my way -Blade | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette-Carson, SmallFeesh, 22. Dec 2003 01:18 | ||
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| hit and runs happen all over, not just online but in B&M's as well... i was playing 15-30 holdem the other day at Bellagio and we must have had at least 6 guys sit down, take a huge pot, and get up immediatley and leave, a few im sure got called to other games/limits, but jeez! not only are hit and runs bad etiquette, but its just not a good way to play winning poker, live or online, i know online you play the person a little less, but you can still learn something about them by what hands they show, how they played them, what they raise, what position they raise them, what cards they play in general. if you dont sit at the table for more than 10-20 mins. how will you know if seat one raises with AA or 27o?? You can only play just the cards so much. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, ekim2000, 22. Dec 2003 11:21 | ||
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| "It’s also an unintelligent and unsophisticated play in my opinion, because if the player were smart he would stick around to see if I go on tilt due to the bad beat—and take further advantage of my increasingly poor play". Yeah, but obviously he is not sophisticated or smart, you just pointed that out. He may not be a total dummy, but I would venture to sat that he has no idea about expectaion, long run, odds, statistics etc. In fact, I don't know if you guys watch the gambling shows on "The Travel Channel", but this is the exact thing that gambling "expert" recomends. (I cannot remember his name) He has this money management system like, "I will only lose x amount here", "if I win x amount I will quit". Albeit he uses this for casino games, but "Mr. Hit and Run" may be using his "system" for poker, through no fault of his own. In conclusion, I really don't really consider this to be poor etiquette in public games or online games. As it has been pointed out before in this thread, there are players coming in and out of online games constantly. I would feel different if this was a monthly/weekly orgagnized game where the players would be depended upon to have a game. | ||
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| Re: Online Holdem Etiquette, Bart Mann, 22. Dec 2003 15:21 | ||
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| Damn, I was hoping this thread (which I started over two months ago) would go away quietly, but I guess I have to jump in again. Forgive the length of my reply . . . First of all, let's clarify something. No one in this thread ever claimed that this was a "rule"--therefore, it is unlikely that anyone will find it written in stone. Or on paper, for that matter. But on the flip side, show me where it's written in stone that 10-year olds shake hands after a hockey game. Or baseball fans stand for the National Anthem. Or people don't answer their cell phones in the middle of the movie. Ah, the difference between "Rule of Law" and "Common Courtesy" now rears its ugly head. Here is a story problem, that just so happens to be true. Read it, give it some thought, then see if you can come up with a reasonable answer . . . Over the past four days I have played 9 hours of B&M poker. In that 9 hours there have been literally hundreds of pots--many of which could be considered "monsters." In that 9 hours of poker I can safely say--because I was there--that not once did a player win a large pot (or any pot, for that matter), then immediately rack his chips and leave the table. Yet, in 9 hours of online poker, which I logged over 1000 of in 2003, it is not uncommon for this to happen once every 20 minutes or so; which would result in no less than 27 occurrences of said act in that same 9-hour span. Now, why would this be the case? I'll tell you why. Because it IS good poker etiquette to not leave after winning a big hand. Because there IS an unwritten poker rule that says "people who leave a table immediately after winning a big hand or dishing out a bad beat are a-holes." And most importanly, this is the case because the cowards who do it online don't have to look 9 other players in the face when they do it. With one click of a button they can leave the table with no dirty looks, no ill-willed comments and no after-discussion about how the rest of the players will never sit down at a table with them again. And for those of you who own a copy of Super System, I encourage you to re-read the section Doyle wrote on table image and creating action. His bottom line: if you expect people to give you action over the long-term, you need to "give back," once in awhile. Play the games they like to play, back off every once in awhile when you're really punishing them, and whenever possible make them WANT to play you again. Never leave an opponent you can consistently beat with a bad taste in his mouth. Unless, of course, you beat them not because you were good, but because you were lucky. Then by all means, I guess those of you who regularly engage in this practice have nothing to lose by getting up and leaving. Whew. That felt good. Happy Holidays! - Bart - | ||
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