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PL HE hand, Angel, 10. Oct 2003 06:40
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I helped start a $400 buy-in, double $10 blind PL HE game Wednesday evening. I knew only one of the players - a tough, aggressive player sitting on my right that I had played with a few times. Although the buy-in was $400, everyone bought in between $1000-$1500 ($1400 for me) except for the player who sat to my immediate left and brought about $15,000 to the game. Even before I saw the chips I began to think that he was one of those who are going to "waste some time in one of these quaint little games while he waited for one with limits worth his time" - you know the type? He didn't let me down and started to try to run over the game immediately. He was in 10 of the first 11 hands and raised 8 of them. Prior to this hand in question, I had increased my stack to about $3000. Thats the set-up - here's the hand:

An EP brings it in and one MP caller, folded to me in the small blind with treys, I rap and the BB raises $40 - we take the flop 4-handed - $160 in the pot. The flop comes A53 rainbow. which is not the worst flop I could think of. I check to the auto-bettor in the BB who doesn't disappoint and makes it $120 - folded around to me. I think long and hard - I'm going to stall anyway because I feel that there is alot of value in showing weakness - I can't put him on a hand (he's shown down everything but the kitchen sink up till now) but certainly believe that I have the best hand - in any case I'm going to play it as if I do - and barring any new information am not going to begin assuming set over set. I'm thinking about a turn strategy but finally decide that I want to see the next card before deciding - I call the $120 - $400 in the pot. The turn is another 5 completing the rainbow and I check again. He bets $150. I really hated this bet - I made my hand and now I'm thinking about slowing down. This is the first non-pot sized bet (or close to pot sized bet) he's made in the game. $150 is 35% of the pot and this guys been jamming it from the onset of the game..this is starting to feel like a "please call me" bet. I'm now considering that he may have a monster. I took a really long time here - they probably could have called the clock and been justified - but it wasn't a stall - I was truly lost at this point. I decided that I still liked my chances of holding the best hand - but how could he call a raise unless he had me beat - and beat would probably mean drawing dead to the case three. I decided that after all the time that I took - I probably saved myself money on the river - if he did have a big hand - he bets a little because as much trouble (or so it appeared) that I had calling the $150 bet on the turn - He'd have to sell it to me cheap on the river - and if I were in the lead - he'd probably bet big to win what was in there and I could pop him then. River was a ten, I checked and he bet $520 - neither a pittance or a pot-sized bet. My plan was to raise...and then I balked. I didn't know where I was but I figure he doesn't call unless I'm beat and A5 had occured to me as a possible holding. He was also capable of raising me all-in with both the nuts or nothing and this wasn't a hand I wanted to risk going broke on. I just called the $520 and he showed me AT. I felt I played this horribly - and yet I'm not sure I could have won any more than I did - which is a strange combination. Thoughts?
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Re: PL HE hand, Blade, 10. Oct 2003 06:53
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You had to figure him for the A but like you mentioned his kicker was the real question. In my experience (limited but experiene non the less) players like the one you described tend to overplay when they hit an A on the board.

A different player I would say be more cautious but it seems like this is exactly the type of situation you want against this type of player. This is when you have figure that you most likely have him beat and that you can extract a big sum of cash from him. Sure there are going to be times he does have you beat but if you are not going to take advantage of opportunities like that one then it seems rather pointless to play with that type of player. At the very least you are forfitting some EV.
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Re: PL HE hand, shorn, 10. Oct 2003 07:44
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Given the board (a small pair with an Ace...a likely BB preflop type of raise), I think you actually played it well. No way you can put him on 55 or AA because he wouldn't have bet the pot on the flop with either of those, so I think you are ahead here. The problem comes when the next 5 hits the turn and he makes a weenie bet. You are right to read that this could be a "please call me" bet and be cautious. I think just calling here actually made you a ton more money on the river as he definitely would hav mucked if you had raised. I love the river check as it invites him to steal (which he did).

Bottom line, other than on the flop, you could never be totally sure you were in the lead and with that board if he didn't have it he would fold to any aggression from you anywhere. This is one of those rare times where it is probably OK to slowplay your hand even though you are potentially subject to being outdrawn. And, you really had no choice but to play it this way because if you show aggression and he comes over the top, you would have to lay it down (a shame when holding a boat in PL).
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Re: PL HE hand, noiseboy, 10. Oct 2003 09:06
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When you have a set, usually you should be the one throwing money at the pot. I would have made a pot sized raise at the flop, and not even thought about slowing down unless he reraised me or a really scary card falls. The problem with checking and calling is that a) you don't get any information and don't know where you are in the hand and b) you give you opponent chances to catch a miracle card and beat you. On the bright side, it is possible that your slow play, though risky, may have made you more on the hand since he may not have called a big bet. However, if you are bluffing and semibluffing on occasion, your opponents may not give you credit for a set and might call you if you bet. Overall, I tend to want to err on the side of aggression, only slowplaying when I have a true MONSTER.

You already know that this guy is playing a lot of hands, don't give him credit for having great cards, also don't think "Oh I don't want to bet because he'll fold", he's got 15K and has shown readiness to gamble with it. If he has something like A decent kicker, he might call a raise on the flop or turn. Especially the deep pocket players, I tend to just bet for value whenever I think I'm best and hope they call.
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Re: PL HE hand, gary ford, 10. Oct 2003 09:54
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on 10. Oct 2003 06:40 Angel wrote:
> I helped start a $400 buy-in, double $10 blind PL HE game Wednesday evening. I
> knew only one of the players - a tough, aggressive player sitting on my right
> that I had played with a few times. Although the buy-in was $400, everyone
> bought in between $1000-$1500 ($1400 for me) except for the player who sat to my left
> immediate left and brought about $15,000 to the game. Even before I saw the
> chips I began to think that he was one of those who are going to "waste some
> time in one of these quaint little games while he waited for one with limits
> worth his time" - you know the type? He didn't let me down and started to try
> to run over the game immediately. He was in 10 of the first 11 hands and raised
> 8 of them. Prior to this hand in question, I had increased my stack to about
> $3000. Thats the set-up - here's the hand:
>
> An EP brings it in and one MP caller, folded to me in the small blind with
> treys, I rap and the BB raises $40 - we take the flop 4-handed - $160 in the
> pot. The flop comes A53 rainbow. which is not the worst flop I could think of.
> I check to the auto-bettor in the BB who doesn't disappoint and makes it $120 -
> folded around to me. I think long and hard - I'm going to stall anyway because
> I feel that there is alot of value in showing weakness - I can't put him on a
> hand (he's shown down everything but the kitchen sink up till now) but certainly
> believe that I have the best hand - in any case I'm going to play it as if I do
> - and barring any new information am not going to begin assuming set over set.
> I'm thinking about a turn strategy but finally decide that I want to see the
> next card before deciding - I call the $120 - $400 in the pot. The turn is
> another 5 completing the rainbow and I check again. He bets $150. I really
> hated this bet - I made my hand and now I'm thinking about slowing down. This
> is the first non-pot sized bet (or close to pot sized bet) he's made in the
> game. $150 is 35% of the pot and this guys been jamming it from the onset of
> the game..this is starting to feel like a "please call me" bet. I'm now
> considering that he may have a monster. I took a really long time here - they
> probably could have called the clock and been justified - but it wasn't a stall
> - I was truly lost at this point. I decided that I still liked my chances of
> holding the best hand - but how could he call a raise unless he had me beat -
> and beat would probably mean drawing dead to the case three. I decided that
> after all the time that I took - I probably saved myself money on the river - if
> he did have a big hand - he bets a little because as much trouble (or so it
> appeared) that I had calling the $150 bet on the turn - He'd have to sell it to
> me cheap on the river - and if I were in the lead - he'd probably bet big to win
> what was in there and I could pop him then. River was a ten, I checked and he
> bet $520 - neither a pittance or a pot-sized bet. My plan was to raise...and
> then I balked. I didn't know where I was but I figure he doesn't call unless
> I'm beat and A5 had occured to me as a possible holding. He was also capable of
> raising me all-in with both the nuts or nothing and this wasn't a hand I wanted
> to risk going broke on. I just called the $520 and he showed me AT. I felt I
> played this horribly - and yet I'm not sure I could have won any more than I did
> - which is a strange combination. Thoughts?

You played this cautiously, not horribly. This was pot limit, not limit.
Did Mr. 14k make any comment after you appeared to just call 3 times wimpily?. If not, he must have thought it. You should have had him on tilt the rest of the game--you know how those guys are. What happened the rest of the game?
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Re: PL HE hand, Angel, 10. Oct 2003 11:36
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on 10. Oct 2003 09:54 gary ford wrote:

> You played this cautiously, not horribly. This was pot limit, not limit.
> Did Mr. 14k make any comment after you appeared to just call 3 times wimpily?. If
> not, he must have thought it. You should have had him on tilt the rest of the
> game--you know how those guys are. What happened the rest of the game?

He didn't last much longer - and to be honest, I left immediately thereafter. I was still second guessing myself on this hand and thats not a good frame of mind to be in.
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Re: PL HE hand, Grateful Rooster, 10. Oct 2003 15:05
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That's a great insight, Gary. Game is more than one hand. I've seen several bombers like that get frustrated when someone comes back with meek calls to take down their aggressive bets. They prefer to have someone fight back at them or go away. Don't know that I would always play it that way, but sometimes it is just best to let the aggressor hang himself.

GR
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