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Server Time: 10/6/2008 4:51:40 PM PACIFIC |
 Did I screw this up?, Mark Gregorich, 9. Oct 2003 21:46 | ||
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| Here's a hand from a good $60-120 hold'em game I was in today at Bellagio: The UTG player raises. Two players fold, and I look down at the AQ of diamonds. Obviously not a clear cut decision on how to proceed with the hand, so here's a bit of background: The UTG raiser was a loose playing tourist, who played poorly on every street. However, he only raised with good hands preflop. Behind me were a few tightish players and one loose aggressive player. The big blind was a loose, fairly passive, very poor player. I decide that smooth calling the raise has the most value here. Although I considered reraising, I decided against it because it would likely narrow it down to me and the best hand (although I could certainly offset some, if not all, of his advantage with better postflop play). I mainly called because I didn't want to shut out the big blind - I knew he'd call one raise with pretty much anything, and if we both flopped a pair I'd get action all the way. The danger, of course, was in allowing the players who had a clue (those sitting behind me) into the pot. However, I ultimately decided that I needed to hit my hand to win anyway, so I decided against trying to eliminate the rest of the field. Naturally, my call creates a ripple effect, as three players call behind me, as does the big blind. A flop of Q42 rainbow puts me in the lead, and I even get raised by the loose aggressive player (holding 43 suited). I reraise, and then bet the turn when a K comes (a bad card for me, as I thought he may have KQ). He calls, then I check and call the river when another 4 comes. Nice hand, take it. So, was calling the raise preflop my optimal play here? Obviously this is one of those "it depends" type of questions, and I'm hopeful that I provided enough background on the players to help analyze this situation properly. While calling certainly hurt my chance of winning the pot, I felt it may be a more profitable overall play, as I thought it greatly increased my chances of winning a large pot (which would have been the case if I could avoid the 5 outer on the river). Mark | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Stevolley2, 9. Oct 2003 22:01 | ||
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| I like AQs because of it's versatility, it is a very good hand in a tight game and a very good hand in a loose game. Depending on the the table and your image that is when you decide how to play this hand, you decided because of the table to play it with a large field. I beleive the article in the latest Cardplayer by Sklansky discussus something very similar, whether winning a high % of smaller pots or winning a smaller % of bigger pots is better. Personally I have noticed that my decision, although made instantly, often reflects my current short term luck. | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, mkpoker, 9. Oct 2003 22:07 | ||
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| In most situations, I probably would have reraised with AQ, for the purpose of isolating against the original raiser and knocking out drawing hands behind me. BUT, given your read of the raiser, you figured that you were behind pre-flop, which changes the situation somewhat (in the LLHE games I play, AQs could very well be ahead of a early raiser--people will raise with AJ, KQ, etc). Essentially, your AQ then becomes a drawing hand, and drawing hands generally like volume pots...so I can see your reasoning well. Of course, you're opening yourself up to being out-drawn by a hand more inferior than yours, even if you hit. For example, one of the late limpers could have held a hand like 44, and your smooth call would have given him the right odds to shoot for a set. That could have been a disaster for you, prompting you to pay off all the way. So bottom line is...heck, I don't know! But if you were really confident that your AQ was behind, I suppose I'd lean toward the smooth call. Of course, your post prompts a few more questions: 1. I'm impressed by the detail of your reads on your opponents. How long does it take you to size up a table with such precision? In TJ Cloutier's book, he writes that it takes him about 20 minutes (which, frankly, I think must be an exaggeration). Personally, I can usually pick out the best and worst players fairly quickly, but it would take me all day to size up the whole table. 2. Could you provide your thoughts on the Hold 'em proposition (AKs vs. random cards) you posited a few days ago? I thought the responses it produced were especially interesting. | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, PairTheBoard, 10. Oct 2003 00:10 | ||
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| Surely you would be more than happy to take that hand to the turn the same way all night long. You got beat by exactly the kind of action you wanted to play against and would love to play against every hand. It's when you stop getting that kind of action that things get difficult. | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Blue Sky, 10. Oct 2003 01:35 | ||
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| Mark, Swing and a miss eh? Your comments about the UTG raiser having very stringent pre-flop raising standards leads me to beleive that this player is rasing with a hand that more then likely has your hand dominated at this point. Please correct me if I'm wrong here but I am assuming that you had to put this player on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or AK. The scenario as I see it is that your holding nothing better then a drawing hand which will need a couple of callers behind you. If you raise here your more then likely going to drop the action behind you with the exception of the BB and could possibly open yourself to a 3 bet from the UTG raiser. I believe you made the right call and it showed by the number of callers behind you - pre-flop...Of course our monday morning QBing of the hand shows that a raise would of probably knocked out the 43s but thats Hold'em. I said I liked your call instead of a raise but I personnally feel based on your read that this player only raises with big hands that you could of possibly laid down this hand and not thought twice about it. I'm sure you have read the recent article by Bob Ciaffone in Cardplayer where he showed the hard numbers of AQ both suited and offsuit vs. the hands that dominate it pre-flop...AA, KK, QQ, and AK. If not, take a look, its an eye opener. I tried to cut and paste the numbers here but Cardplayer has some crazy copywrite software that won't allow it...check out this link. http://cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13431 Win some, Lose some, but always learn from it. | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Snorbolus, 10. Oct 2003 05:14 | ||
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| You said that pre-flop was not clear cut but I am interested if you considered folding as one of your options? I can't think of many tight UTG raising hands that don't have AQ dominated and I find it hard to believe that the flush alone adds sufficient value. I would have folded. Would this have been a bad play? The flop was good, unless UTG has QQ you are now ahead. I very much like your re-raise. The turn was terrible for you. Was UTG still in the hand? If yes I am sure that I would have folded right there. Am I too weak? Snorbolus on 9. Oct 2003 21:46 Mark Gregorich wrote: > Here's a hand from a good $60-120 hold'em game I was in today at Bellagio: > > The UTG player raises. Two players fold, and I look down at the AQ of > diamonds. Obviously not a clear cut decision on how to proceed with the hand, > so here's a bit of background: The UTG raiser was a loose playing tourist, who > played poorly on every street. However, he only raised with good hands preflop. > Behind me were a few tightish players and one loose aggressive player. The big > blind was a loose, fairly passive, very poor player. > > I decide that smooth calling the raise has the most value here. Although I > considered reraising, I decided against it because it would likely narrow it > down to me and the best hand (although I could certainly offset some, if not > all, of his advantage with better postflop play). I mainly called because I > didn't want to shut out the big blind - I knew he'd call one raise with pretty > much anything, and if we both flopped a pair I'd get action all the way. The > danger, of course, was in allowing the players who had a clue (those sitting > behind me) into the pot. However, I ultimately decided that I needed to hit my > hand to win anyway, so I decided against trying to eliminate the rest of the > field. > > Naturally, my call creates a ripple effect, as three players call behind me, as > does the big blind. A flop of Q42 rainbow puts me in the lead, and I even get > raised by the loose aggressive player (holding 43 suited). I reraise, and then > bet the turn when a K comes (a bad card for me, as I thought he may have KQ). > He calls, then I check and call the river when another 4 comes. Nice hand, take > it. > > So, was calling the raise preflop my optimal play here? Obviously this is one > of those "it depends" type of questions, and I'm hopeful that I provided enough > background on the players to help analyze this situation properly. While > calling certainly hurt my chance of winning the pot, I felt it may be a more > profitable overall play, as I thought it greatly increased my chances of winning > a large pot (which would have been the case if I could avoid the 5 outer on the > river). > > Mark | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Angel, 10. Oct 2003 05:56 | ||
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| Mark, The only other information I would have liked to have on this hand prior to discussing it were: 1. Did a diamond flop? The backdoor draw doesn't offer much but it gets thrown into the mix. 2. Could you define the range of what the UTG player called 'good'? If he's coming with a raise and will only raise with AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK and AQs then I'd be apt to muck. If he would also bring it in with a raise with JJ, TT, AQ, AJs, AJ, ATs and maybe even AT and 99 then I certainly would call and certainly not raise - for the reasons you listed. If the LAP is going to call 2 bets cold - I've little doubt that a player with that texture grey matter wouldn't call a 3-bet re-raise either. You've got $750 in the pot before the flop and he flops middle pair (did he also have a backdoor flush draw?) Faced with a $60 bet he's getting $810 to $60 on the call or 13.5:1. Probably better players than he would figure that they've 6 clean outs (throwing one in there for an assumed backdoor flush draw). So he's 47:5 or 9.5:1 unless he's got the backdoor draw in which case he could improve that to about 8:1, so while his pre-flop call was bad - his action on the flop is understandably call or raise - unless he can put you on a set or two pair (which I wouldn't have). Having position on you I probably would have gone for the raise if I thought it had a fair chance of getting me a free card on the turn. You correctly raised him which lowered his price - I think you played post-flop fine, I just wanted to point out why I don't think his post-flop play was terrible. | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, shorn, 10. Oct 2003 07:35 | ||
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| Angel- I am curious as to why you wouldn't want to raise to isolate this player if the range of hands that he would raise UTG with is greater? Is it because you find the $ value of AQs in MP to be so much higher in a multiway pot that it is better to flat call and hope folks behind you do the same? Perhaps I am putting too much emphasis on the fact that UTG is a crappy post flop player and the folks behind me are not. Anyway, I just want to understand your rationale on this as on first look (unless UTG is only capable of raising with AA, KK, QQ and AK) it seems to me that it is a better play to 3-bet pre-flop to isolate. Thanks, Steve | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Angel, 10. Oct 2003 12:17 | ||
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| Steve, Well, in such a situation, I am either in a coin toss situation or a huge dog. While it's true that this particular player plays poorly after the flop - poor play after the flop comes down to one of six poor responses: 1. Folding when they should call. 2. Folding when they should raise. 3. Calling when they should fold. 4. Calling when they should raise. 5. Raising when they should fold. and 6. Raising when they should call. While I don't know this particular player, it has been my experience that most poor players make #3 most often - calling when they should fold - particularly when they have a superior pre-flop hand. I agree with Mark's analysis that he must hit his hand to win. This being the case, that I believe that the player shall probably have a propensity toward calling even if Mark outplays him post-flop, he should take a flop with a large field with a hand which plays well against a large field. If this didn't answer your question adequately - please ask again, I'm on cup of coffee #1 and I am always drawing slim to understanding in such a spot. :) Angel | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, shorn, 10. Oct 2003 12:43 | ||
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| Angel- That was a perfect response and makes perfect sense. Bad players do seem to make mistake #3 more often when they are unsure, especially with a quality pre-flop hand. I now like the rationale. That doesn't mean that I would do it every time, but I suppose with suited high cards a large field can help you from an EV standpoint. I suppose that if Mark had held QQ-TT, you might think differently, correct? Thanks, Steve | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Angel, 10. Oct 2003 12:49 | ||
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| Steve, Absolutely, w/ QQ-TT I would have 3-bet it. Angel | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Mark Gregorich, 10. Oct 2003 22:19 | ||
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| me too Mark | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, shorn, 10. Oct 2003 05:47 | ||
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| I will disagree with most others and say that you should have 3-bet pre-flop. Yes, you could be behind by your description of the player UTG, but he could be raising with TT or JJ too to which you aren't that great an underdog. But, the most important reason to raise (IMO) is because you state that he played poorly on every street. That is the type of player that I want to isolate (even with a high card drawing hand), because you know you can outplay him post flop and you may even be able to get him to fold AK if beither of you hits. Letting other "good players" in behind you eliminates this possibility. Also, since you are in middle position you face the prospect of a re-raise behind you anyway and potentially a cap from UTG at which point you probably will have to fold wiythout seeing any cards. That is the worst of all scenarios. I understand your logic here, but I would have played it differently due to my position and the fact that I have a big advantage over my opponent if a flop well OR if a rag flop comes. | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, LJH, 10. Oct 2003 06:59 | ||
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| MARK, YOU HAD TWO OPTIONS. RAISE OR FOLD. CALLING WAS NOT GOOD, AS YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED. A Q IS REALLY ONE OF THE TOUGHEST HANDS TO PLAY. LJH | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, grant pittman, 10. Oct 2003 08:18 | ||
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| Mark I agree with your call in this situation completely. I can think of many players who play poorly but when they raise preflop LOOKOUT it's a monster!!! Attempting to take this hand headsup by 3 betting is a poor play but it's one of those plays I hear "good players" complimenting themselves on making after the hand . "Well how was I supposed to know he had kings????? He plays every hand doesn't he???" Good play Mark and my compliments on being able to read a player who many think could "have any 2 cards". GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, shorn, 10. Oct 2003 08:50 | ||
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| OK Grant. Since I am "one of those players" that you mention, I need a bit more in depth analysis from you as to why 3-betting is a poor play. I am far less experienced than you are, so this is in an effort to improve my game/read of situations. Here are the reasons again why I would have 3-bet: 1. You have position on this weak post-flop player. 2. It is possible he is raising with a hand that isn't AA, KK, QQ or AK so you could be ahead. So, not only does raising have the benefit of isolation but you actually msay be doing it with the best of it. 3. You are confident yoy can outplay him post flop. 4. You probably increase your chances of winning the pot if you are behind by eliminating all other players behind you. You aren't the first player on here that I respect to say that calling was superior. I just want a little more of that insight so that I am not such a guppie if I ever play with you guys. Thanks, Steve 4. There are better players behind you than UTG | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, grant pittman, 13. Oct 2003 05:53 | ||
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| Shorn I'm sorry it took so long with my reply. My real concern with 3 betting such a player is that I don't want to isolate him with a hand where I'm a slight favorite or a big dog. Sure, you may have superior reading ability and play knowledge (I avoid the term "outplay" here....it seems to get tossed around in analysis situations very readily....often overrated by the "outplayer") but this won't save you if you keep taking that AQ up against QQ,KK,AA,AK. By calling preflop, you DO leave the door open for opponents to call in behind you with worse hands than yours!!! Many players pick up a hand like AQ and go into auto raise mode thinking they need it headsup. I agree with this play against some opponents in some cases. It also belongs in the muck preflop against some raises (very few I would agree). Letting an opponent call with say A10 or AJ behind you has a greater chance of happening for two bets than 3 preflop. This is EXTREMELY favorable for you and it will "cushion" the potential unfavorable spot you may find yourself in to the original raiser. Now, this certainly isn't a flashy multi-bet bluff or great read but if you want to discuss "outplaying" your opponent you have certainly done it here. It's subtle but very effective against your opponents who WILL call the raise with a lesser ace than yours. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Blade, 13. Oct 2003 06:49 | ||
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| Grant, Excellent post. That is not something I had thought about before (not reraising to effectively build the pot) and has the potential to gain me some extra bets. Thanks | ||
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| Re: Did I screw this up?, Roy Cooke, 11. Oct 2003 19:19 | ||
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| Hi Mark I VERY much like how you played it and your thought process throughout the hand!....Yes, you lost the hand........But you can't control what comes, only the decisions you make...... Roy Cooke on 9. Oct 2003 21:46 Mark Gregorich wrote: > Here's a hand from a good $60-120 hold'em game I was in today at Bellagio: > > The UTG player raises. Two players fold, and I look down at the AQ of > diamonds. Obviously not a clear cut decision on how to proceed with the hand, > so here's a bit of background: The UTG raiser was a loose playing tourist, who > played poorly on every street. However, he only raised with good hands preflop. > Behind me were a few tightish players and one loose aggressive player. The big > blind was a loose, fairly passive, very poor player. > > I decide that smooth calling the raise has the most value here. Although I > considered reraising, I decided against it because it would likely narrow it > down to me and the best hand (although I could certainly offset some, if not > all, of his advantage with better postflop play). I mainly called because I > didn't want to shut out the big blind - I knew he'd call one raise with pretty > much anything, and if we both flopped a pair I'd get action all the way. The > danger, of course, was in allowing the players who had a clue (those sitting > behind me) into the pot. However, I ultimately decided that I needed to hit my > hand to win anyway, so I decided against trying to eliminate the rest of the > field. > > Naturally, my call creates a ripple effect, as three players call behind me, as > does the big blind. A flop of Q42 rainbow puts me in the lead, and I even get > raised by the loose aggressive player (holding 43 suited). I reraise, and then > bet the turn when a K comes (a bad card for me, as I thought he may have KQ). > He calls, then I check and call the river when another 4 comes. Nice hand, take > it. > > So, was calling the raise preflop my optimal play here? Obviously this is one > of those "it depends" type of questions, and I'm hopeful that I provided enough > background on the players to help analyze this situation properly. While > calling certainly hurt my chance of winning the pot, I felt it may be a more > profitable overall play, as I thought it greatly increased my chances of winning > a large pot (which would have been the case if I could avoid the 5 outer on the > river). > > Mark | ||
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