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Server Time: 12/1/2008 2:02:31 PM PACIFIC |
 Comment on my Play, Barry T, 8. Oct 2003 21:41 | ||
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| Hi. Online $15-$30. I am in SB with Jd9d. All fold to a loose seeming guy on the button, who raises. I three bet. BB folds, button calls. Flop is AK5 rainbow (no diamonds). I bet, he calls. Turn is a 3. I check, planning to cleverly fold, but he checks too. River is a J. I check, he checks. I win. (He has 77). Comments? BarryT | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, mkpoker, 8. Oct 2003 22:02 | ||
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| I like your 3-bet pre-flop. Fighting back strongly against a likely steal-raise. And just in case you're wrong and button has a real hand, your 3-bet will likely force out the BB, giving you a chance to isolate and potentially get lucky on the flop. I also like betting into that scary flop. The truth is, you've got no idea what button has at this point, so you can represent the better hand. But I have one question for you...why not bet the river? If he held an A or K, I think he would have popped you on the turn. A very wise pro once told me...Bet the River! :) | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Schuster, 8. Oct 2003 22:28 | ||
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| I don't play $15-30, so I'm not sure... is the blind $5 or $10? It doesn't make so much a difference for your odds to 3 bet, but he might be opening a little lighter if it's 10 since there's more to steal. Now, when you say the guy on the button is loose, do you mean just loose with his raises, likes to steal a lot, or just loose in general? For this particular hand, I would not want to make this kind of play against a loose player. If I were in your shoes, my game plan would be to take it down right away with a scary flop (like the one you got) or flop well and win the hand on it's own value. There's a good amount of flops that either can give you the best hand or can let you represent the best hand with this holding. The problem is against a loose player, if you're just representing something, he's liable to call you down if he has something, and then you've lost a lot of extra bets just trying to buy a pot that you had the minimum invested in the first place. If poker was a vacuum, I would let this hand go. But, since this hand will affect future hands, the play may be warranted. How long had you been at the table? Was he there before you? How long did you plan on staying? If you got the feeling you would both be there for a little while, then this type of hand would be good to say "hey, I'm not afraid to play back with really marginal stuff, so don't try to step on my blind without a hand buddy!" because you can either try to represent the best hand or you can hit your flop. Once you showed this hand down, did he seem to back off on steals? I think this is the real value of making this play, to keep him off your back in the future. In response to mk's question about betting the river, I can think of very few hands that he could have that will pay you off that you have beat, the middle pocket pair being one of them. I think there's a lot more EV to let him take a stab at it if he has nothing. While I'd feel reasonably confident that you have the best hand here, there just isn't much to be gained with a bet. What are your thoughts on the hand Barry? Lee | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Formless, 9. Oct 2003 04:37 | ||
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| Some very aggressive players will bring in 100% of hands for a raise on a button if it has not been opened yet, but most will still dump the worst 10-40% at the 15-30 level I think. If you are in a tightish game and this guy is two to your right you want to educate this player early not to mess with you or it's going to cost him money. So your J9s is slightly better than average against a totally random hand but is likely a dog right now versus a raise with any kind of legitimacy. No big deal though. The good thing about J9s is that it is a crafty hand that is well-disguised, not overly prone to domination, and draws well, so if you bang your hand now the pot will be big enough to hang around and catch a draw. The bad thing is that it stinks as a showdown hand. In any case, it is callable in the BB versus a steal raise and if you are going to call, then consider the benefits of raising. If he is raising with say 80% of his hands here odds are he does not have an ace, or a pocket pair for that matter. The very best thing about this play is that you now own any Ace high flop because of your aggression. You bet, he folds. The majority of players at 15-30 will dump an underpair here. And the check on the river is an absolute no-brainer. on 8. Oct 2003 21:41 Barry T wrote: > Hi. Online $15-$30. I am in SB with Jd9d. All fold to a loose seeming guy on > the button, who raises. I three bet. BB folds, button calls. > Flop is AK5 rainbow (no diamonds). I bet, he calls. Turn is a 3. I check, > planning to cleverly fold, but he checks too. River is a J. I check, he > checks. I win. (He has 77). > > Comments? > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, shorn, 9. Oct 2003 05:04 | ||
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| I like your play throughout. I don't think you will be called on the river by a hand that you could beat as it would look to me like you were trying to checkraise the turn if you bet the river. So, without at least a King, I would have folded the river to a bet from you. Looks to me like you made the max. you could with this holding. Steve | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, WilliamS, 9. Oct 2003 07:27 | ||
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| Barry, How about a ckraise on the flop with the idea of folding if he reraises you? Will | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Roy Cooke, 9. Oct 2003 09:12 | ||
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| Hi Barry I would ask myself several questions...Does this loose seeming guy on the button lay down to aggression? (If he doesn't your 3-bet play has lost much of its value) Will he play back at you with no hand? (If he does your 3-bet play has lost some of its value) Is the big blind a player which will make significant errors later in the hand if you let him play? (If he is, it would add value to calling) Will this guy lay down King on the turn? (If he would you should have bet the turn) Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 8. Oct 2003 21:41 Barry T wrote: > Hi. Online $15-$30. I am in SB with Jd9d. All fold to a loose seeming guy on > the button, who raises. I three bet. BB folds, button calls. > > Flop is AK5 rainbow (no diamonds). I bet, he calls. Turn is a 3. I check, > planning to cleverly fold, but he checks too. River is a J. I check, he > checks. I win. (He has 77). > > Comments? > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, mroban, 9. Oct 2003 12:48 | ||
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| Barry: As your pupil I don't feel qualified to comment! But if I had made the play here is what I think you would have told me in one of our lessons: If the read was a blind steal attempt, the three bet was a great play. You missed the flop but bet to see if he missed too. he called so checking and folding is the right play (he could easily have played any ace any king) on the turn, but when he checks too you correctly assume he would not slowplay at this point if he had an ace or king. Only big hand he might check here is Big Slick to try and induce a bluff from you on the river. You hit your J. He will not fold a bet here. You check and will call one bet. I like the play a lot. Only question is betting the flop. I would have folded a reraise on the flop (and I think you would have too). The raise was better than a check because it bought you a free card on the turn and probably the river. A bet on river would accomplish nothing because you couldn't really bet for value (you probably figured you were 50-50 at best) and he wasn't going to fold. I would also have strongly considered checking and folding on the flop in my Low Limit game just because it always seems whenever an A or K hits the flop the preflop raiser has some piece of that at least. How did I do teach? on 8. Oct 2003 21:41 Barry T wrote: > Hi. Online $15-$30. I am in SB with Jd9d. All fold to a loose seeming guy on > the button, who raises. I three bet. BB folds, button calls. > > Flop is AK5 rainbow (no diamonds). I bet, he calls. Turn is a 3. I check, > planning to cleverly fold, but he checks too. River is a J. I check, he > checks. I win. (He has 77). > > Comments? > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Barry T, 9. Oct 2003 15:58 | ||
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| Hi. I like the three bet uunder the circumstances. And I like my bet on the flop. Nobody much discussed my check on the turn, which is a marginal play. I really did not know this guy well, other than he seemed loosish. But perhaps I should fire the second barrel. Usually, I like at least a draw to do that. My check on the river I think is corerect, in that having checked twice, I have some chance to induce a bluff. I have little chance of inducing a call, but you never know. I would not fault someone for betting. | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, modestmice, 9. Oct 2003 17:35 | ||
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| yeah, i've often found that if you check twice someone will almost always bet out at that point. that is better than betting here. on 9. Oct 2003 15:58 Barry T wrote: > Hi. I like the three bet uunder the circumstances. And I like my bet on the flop. > > > Nobody much discussed my check on the turn, which is a marginal play. I really did > not know this guy well, other than he seemed loosish. But perhaps I should fire the > second barrel. Usually, I like at least a draw to do that. > > My check on the river I think is corerect, in that having checked twice, I have some > chance to induce a bluff. I have little chance of inducing a call, but you never > know. I would not fault someone for betting. | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Blade, 9. Oct 2003 18:23 | ||
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| Well it looks like the voice of dissention as I don't like your play at all. First, you state that he is a loose seeming player. To me this is a reason to fold with your hand J9d as most loose aggressive players (your reads as a steal attempt means you believe he is aggressive) will not be able to release a hand once engaged in battle, and your hand has little chance in a showdown. Second your use of the word seeming, leads me to believe you don't have a very good feel for this player at all. As we find out later your read was wrong. My choice here would be to fold and wait for an opprtunity to pop him on a similar play when you have a better hand (an A?) or better read. You also have $0 invested at this time as you sb is already part of the pot and not yours. Basically with you reraise you payed the equilvalent of cold calling 2 bets with j9s. If you are determined to play this DRAWING hand then why not just call, which hopefully gets another bet from the BB in the pot. If you hit hard you can pick up a good pot, if not you only in 1 1/2bets. Once you made the decision to call I can not understand why you would not bet the turn. Of course this loose aggressive player is going to call the flop. He has committed 3 bets already and probably believes you are still defending. Calling a turn bet if he has not hit is alot more difficult. Your bet turn bet says I have a A if you don't fold. Your check says I was defending, if you have an K take the pot. He obviously does not have an A. 90% of loose players will call a flop bet IMO. I would have bet the river here because I don't think there is anyway he has you beat based on his play but there is also no chance of him folding. He's commited to fighting at this point and ego will not allow a fold. I think you will be the first to agreee the fact that you got a J on the river is completely irrelevent. | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Barry T, 9. Oct 2003 21:12 | ||
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| on 9. Oct 2003 18:23 Blade wrote: > Well it looks like the voice of dissention as I don't like your play at all. > I thouight the hand was pretty controversial, or I would have posted it. All of my plays are open to question. Even I am not sure of them. I did not post this as a shining examole of expert play. > First, you state that he is a loose seeming player. To me this is a reason to fold > with your hand J9d as most loose aggressive players (your reads as a steal attempt > means you believe he is aggressive) will not be able to release a hand once engaged > in battle, and your hand has little chance in a showdown. I did not read him as aggressive. Lots of players, even pretty passive ones, like to raise on the button first in. Nor it is obvious even now that he is. In fact, has play looks pretty passive to me. > > Second your use of the word seeming, leads me to believe you don't have a very good > feel for this player at all. As we find out later your read was wrong. > I do not know if my read was wrong, but you are right about the seeming. I did not know this player well. > My choice here would be to fold and wait for an opprtunity to pop him on a similar > play when you have a better hand (an A?) or better read. A reasonable choice. > You also have $0 invested at this time as you sb is already part of the pot and not > yours. Basically with you reraise you payed the equilvalent of cold calling 2 bets > with j9s. > Yes, you are right. the money inthe pot is not mine. I never thought it was. I did think that my marginal hand was a close call to play. A lot of players think, when see you 3-bet with J9s, (even when it might be right) that you are nutty, and give you action on later 3-bets. But is is certainly marginal. > If you are determined to play this DRAWING hand then why not just call, which > hopefully gets another bet from the BB in the pot. If you hit hard you can pick up a > good pot, if not you only in 1 1/2bets. I do not like this strategy...I think If I play I would rather take control and try to win with a bet if we both miss the flop than contend with a third player. Besides, dead money can never beat you. > Once you made the decision to call I can not understand why you would not bet the > turn. Of course this loose aggressive player is going to call the flop. He has > committed 3 bets already and probably believes you are still defending. Calling a > turn bet if he has not hit is alot more difficult. Your bet turn bet says I have a A > if you don't fold. Your check says I was defending, if you have an K take the pot. > He obviously does not have an A. 90% of loose players will call a flop bet IMO. Yes, this is the play I thought would cause the most discussion (though you are one of the few to mention it). I suspect I should have bet the turn as well. > > I would have bet the river here because I don't think there is anyway he has you > beat based on his play but there is also no chance of him folding. He's commited to > fighting at this point and ego will not allow a fold. Close as to whether I might induce a bluff or get a loose call. I tried for the losing value bet or bluff. I do not think either is obvious. > I think you will be the first to agreee the fact that you got a J on the river is > completely irrelevent. Almost irrelevant. If no J, then I HAVE to bet the river. Thanks for replying,. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, timmer, 9. Oct 2003 19:07 | ||
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| Let me get this straight. Three bet a lone opponent with a J high drawing hand into an unknown quantity ? I once had a great player tell me jokingly,about these kind of plays. His sarcastic reasoning was , " well, maybe they'll fold " Did you really think this loosie would fold for 1 more? Then you bet out with Nothing I know loose players never have an A, K, or Q's when they call reraises with position preflop. But this bet seems like reaching just a bit Oh well who said overcards never get there. The turn check was the most sensible thing you did Maybe Hojo's is rubbing off on you. timmer | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, grant pittman, 10. Oct 2003 08:03 | ||
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| Hi Barry....just got home from a 4 day trip in Brantford.....YUK!!!!!!!!!!!!! More about this later. I just looked at the post and I think this situation plays out so often online that it's a great discussion hand for all. I like your 3 bet preflop better than a call and I would NEVER fold preflop to this type of player.....if he likes to push I take pride in pushing back like you did. You are going to have to bet the flop as you did. On the turn I also would bet here without a thought. Players who are loose are always going to take the flop off with any Q,10... Q,J... J,10... OR any wired pair....all these hands will go into the muck on the turn if the player is relatively sane as long as you bet. The only time I would pass the turn is if the player on the button was a habitual check raiser (Mike Caro wrote a superb article some years ago about this situation with this type of player and how it was often correct to check the turn to someone who has a habit of check raising or waiting for the turn to raise....whoops side tracked again!!!!). Once the turn is checked BET that river!!!!!! Yes there are hands that he can hold that beat you ( QJ,J10,QQ,JJ) but there are more hands that he may call you with that you beat (like the hand he held) as well he may lay down a hand that you aren't beating!!!! But the real bonus here is that you will LIKELY never get raised on the river!!! I find this reality to be the "selling feature" of the river bet since I feel it is a positive expectation wager that almost everyone passes on without much thought. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Phish, 10. Oct 2003 10:02 | ||
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| on 10. Oct 2003 08:03 grant pittman wrote: > Hi Barry....just got home from a 4 day trip in Brantford.....YUK!!!!!!!!!!!!! More about > this later. I just looked at the post and I think this situation plays out so often online > that it's a great discussion hand for all. I like your 3 bet preflop better than a call > and I would NEVER fold preflop to this type of player.....if he likes to push I take pride > in pushing back like you did. You are going to have to bet the flop as you did. On the > turn I also would bet here without a thought. Players who are loose are always going to > take the flop off with any Q,10... Q,J... J,10... OR any wired pair....all these hands > will go into the muck on the turn if the player is relatively sane as long as you bet. The > only time I would pass the turn is if the player on the button was a habitual check raiser > (Mike Caro wrote a superb article some years ago about this situation with this type of > player and how it was often correct to check the turn to someone who has a habit of check > raising or waiting for the turn to raise....whoops side tracked again!!!!). Once the turn > is checked BET that river!!!!!! Yes there are hands that he can hold that beat you ( > QJ,J10,QQ,JJ) but there are more hands that he may call you with that you beat (like the > hand he held) as well he may lay down a hand that you aren't beating!!!! But the real > bonus here is that you will LIKELY never get raised on the river!!! I find this reality to > be the "selling feature" of the river bet since I feel it is a positive expectation wager > that almost everyone passes on without much thought. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN Overall a pretty unremarkable hand, if you ask me. Grant, I agree with your assessment except for the very end. If you had checked the turned and he also checked, then a bet on the river is correct. But if you had bet the turn and got called, a check on the river may now be wiser, because it is now more likely that he could hold a better hand but one which he would also check after you checked. Depending on the player, this could range anywhere from QJ,JT (many people actually call heads-up with a gut-shot) or a king or even a bad-ace. Add to that the possibility he might've made a straight, or that he won't call the river, or he'll try to bluff the river w/ zilch but won't call a bet, and I think a check on the river (after a bet and call on the turn) may be the better play. But regardless, decisions like this won't impact your results much. Much more important in this hand was 1) reraising pre-flop if you're going to play (and folding is not a good option given the opponent and situation) and 2) playing aggressively on the flop and turn. | ||
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| Re: Comment on my Play, Barry T, 10. Oct 2003 10:36 | ||
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| Hi. Grant: I thought I might have missed a chanceonthe turn as well. ANd I am ot sure I ageree about the river... But here is a question: if you bet the turn as you plan, and are called, how do you (typically) handle the river, a) if a J falls, and b) if a blank falls. Do you typically bluff through, or give up when he callls the turn? Thanks.. BarryT | ||
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