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Server Time: 12/1/2008 2:54:14 PM PACIFIC |
 New, bofund, 8. Oct 2003 08:30 | ||
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| Hi, I've been playing online holdem for about 3 months now. I started out playing in 5/10 cent rooms on Pacific Poker. I play in the 1/2 and 2/4 $ rooms now and I don't tend to lose a great deal of money. The trouble that I don't seem to win anything either. I know this is low limit stuff but right now I'm not in a position financially or experience wise to move to the higher tables. I am a very patient player and usually only play with reasonable hands. However, when my pocket aces gets beat by a 72o, I'm wondering what's going on. Do I need to move to higher tables to get a more realistic feel for the game? I'm finding it impossible to raise these people into folding Any idea or thoughts would be welcome | ||
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| Re: New, Easy E, 8. Oct 2003 09:13 | ||
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| on 8. Oct 2003 08:30 bofund wrote: > Hi, I've been playing online holdem for about 3 months now. I started out > playing in 5/10 cent rooms on Pacific Poker. Welcome to the Dark Side, Luke.... > > I play in the 1/2 and 2/4 $ rooms now and I don't tend to lose a great deal of > money. The trouble that I don't seem to win anything either. I know this is > low limit stuff but right now I'm not in a position financially or experience > wise to move to the higher tables. May be rake, may be 8,000 other things. > > I am a very patient player and usually only play with reasonable hands. DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER! > However, when my pocket aces gets beat by a 72o, I'm wondering what's going on. You're playing low-limit. > Do I need to move to higher tables to get a more realistic feel for the game? > I'm finding it impossible to raise these people into folding So don't try. Raise with AA to get more money in the pot. Be more willing to let go of big hands. Play more suited connectors, big ones especially. | ||
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| Re: New, Blade, 8. Oct 2003 10:50 | ||
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| Bofund, Take comfort in the fact that every player who has visited this site (myself included) has posted this exact problem. Work, work & work on your game. Read books, reread books. Read this site and ask questions. An excerise that I did often was deal ten starting hands and practice each one. for example p1=82o I will fold as this does not meet my starting requirements. p3=AA I will raise, p5=KJo With a raise this marginal hand is most likely dominated and there are still 5 players to act who could reraise, I will fold. Think about what you are doing, why you are doing, for example I have AA mid position. The marginal player raises because "well thats what you do with AA" the improving player thinks "I am raising with AA in mid-position to A) increase the pot because at this moment I have the best hand & B) to increase my chances of winning by possibly folding some hands off. Note that if a weaker hand (82o) stays then you have forced them into making a mistake. This is a good thing, you are playing with Math. If 82 hits fine he is playing with luck. Luck is a big flashy player who wears a bright robe to the ring and makes alot of noise when he wins. Math is Roy Jones jr. Get it? Notice that the thinking changes in late position but the action does not. "I have AA from the BB (last to act preflop) I am not going to fold any hands who are already in for one bet (applies to low-limit) but I haved the best hand right now and want to get as much money from my opponent as possible. Think about what your opponent is doing, why is he taking this action, what does he think I have. BTW.....no where above did I mention results. I firmly believe that when starting out money won & lost is the most over rated aspect of the game. Poker is a Algerbiac expression, a big complicated one with many variables, but nothing more. You are working on the expression side of the equation, trying to solve for as many variables as possible. The result side takes care of it self. 3 months ago I was playing 1-2 and posted something very simailar to yours. I thought I was good player what is wrong. Looking back I knew what were good starting hands and nothing more. I now play 3-6 and recently went 5-10 and have won 2500 this month alone. And here is the rub..........bofund....I am still an improving player who is overwhelmed sometimes by the amount of knowledge and experience that I still need to acquire. | ||
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| Re: New, modestmice, 8. Oct 2003 17:12 | ||
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| good post, reminds me of my rise. once u hit 6-12, life begins. fark lower limits. i know you have to start low with no bank, but fark lower limits on 8. Oct 2003 10:50 Blade wrote: > Bofund, > > Take comfort in the fact that every player who has visited this site (myself included) > has posted this exact problem. > > Work, work & work on your game. Read books, reread books. Read this site and ask > questions. An excerise that I did often was deal ten starting hands and practice each > one. for example p1=82o I will fold as this does not meet my starting requirements. > p3=AA I will raise, p5=KJo With a raise this marginal hand is most likely dominated and > there are still 5 players to act who could reraise, I will fold. > > > Think about what you are doing, why you are doing, for example I have AA mid position. > The marginal player raises because "well thats what you do with AA" the improving player > thinks "I am raising with AA in mid-position to A) increase the pot because at this moment > I have the best hand & B) to increase my chances of winning by possibly folding some hands > off. Note that if a weaker hand (82o) stays then you have forced them into making a > mistake. > > This is a good thing, you are playing with Math. If 82 hits fine he is playing with > luck. Luck is a big flashy player who wears a bright robe to the ring and makes alot of > noise when he wins. Math is Roy Jones jr. Get it? > > Notice that the thinking changes in late position but the action does not. "I have AA > from the BB (last to act preflop) I am not going to fold any hands who are already in for > one bet (applies to low-limit) but I haved the best hand right now and want to get as much > money from my opponent as possible. > > Think about what your opponent is doing, why is he taking this action, what does he think > I have. > > BTW.....no where above did I mention results. I firmly believe that when starting out > money won & lost is the most over rated aspect of the game. Poker is a Algerbiac > expression, a big complicated one with many variables, but nothing more. You are > working on the expression side of the equation, trying to solve for as many variables as > possible. The result side takes care of it self. > > 3 months ago I was playing 1-2 and posted something very simailar to yours. I thought I > was good player what is wrong. Looking back I knew what were good starting hands and > nothing more. I now play 3-6 and recently went 5-10 and have won 2500 this month alone. > And here is the rub..........bofund....I am still an improving player who is overwhelmed > sometimes by the amount of knowledge and experience that I still need to acquire. | ||
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| Re: New, gary ford, 8. Oct 2003 23:05 | ||
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| your rise from a mouse to mice, you mean? | ||
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| Re: New, modestmice, 8. Oct 2003 17:09 | ||
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| good one easy e, yer a funny motherfarker on 8. Oct 2003 09:13 Easy E wrote: > on 8. Oct 2003 08:30 bofund wrote: > > Hi, I've been playing online holdem for about 3 months now. I started out > > playing in 5/10 cent rooms on Pacific Poker. > > Welcome to the Dark Side, Luke.... > > > > > I play in the 1/2 and 2/4 $ rooms now and I don't tend to lose a great deal of > > money. The trouble that I don't seem to win anything either. I know this is > > low limit stuff but right now I'm not in a position financially or experience > > wise to move to the higher tables. > > May be rake, may be 8,000 other things. > > > > I am a very patient player and usually only play with reasonable hands. > > DANGER, WILL ROBINSON! DANGER! > > > However, when my pocket aces gets beat by a 72o, I'm wondering what's going on. > > > You're playing low-limit. > > > Do I need to move to higher tables to get a more realistic feel for the game? > > I'm finding it impossible to raise these people into folding > > So don't try. Raise with AA to get more money in the pot. Be more willing to > let go of big hands. Play more suited connectors, big ones especially. | ||
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| Re: New, Denver, 8. Oct 2003 16:22 | ||
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| Your post sounds like a lot of others and I felt the same way you did this time last year. I started on 1/2 made a little money, moved to 2/4 made a little money...3/6...finally 5/10 and I drop $500 in one night. I realize now that my first book (Lee Jones') and a decent rush of cards made me believe that I would be a middle limit player in a couple weeks. Long story short I went through the bankroll drain thing 2 other times. The last time it happened I busted out by dropping $50 on a 1/2. I went back, re-read my old books, bought some new ones and tried yet again. This time I started with 100BB -- That is I started with $50 and stuck to the $0.25-$.50. I forced myself to stay at that limit until I doubled my bankroll. After a while you learn that some of the 'book plays' don't work on the tiny limit maniacs. So you adjust, limp a lot, call down with top pair/top kicker and raise as soon as draws are busted and rarely try to slow play, give others "the wrong odds to call" with a favored, but unmade hand. On the upside you'll almost always get the right odds to chase 4-flushes and open ended straights. What I learned down there was the "basics" -- raise when you're strong, fold when you're beat, and call when you're even, get a piece of the flop or get out. After only a few weeks of trying to be disciplined and watch a table before I join, pay attention to whose coming and going, and playing straight up tight-aggressive I was able to crush the tiny limits to the tune of 4-5BB/hr. When I double the bankroll I moved up to $0.50-$1. I did the same thing there and found the game to be very similar with more tables featuring slightly more observant and/or tight players. When they say the only way to learn is experience, they mean it! If you can't beat a game consistently (show a profit of at least 1BB/hr after, say, 50 hours) I would say that you're not perceptive, disciplined, or calculating to stay there. Right now I know I wouldn't be a total fish on the 3/6 tables, but until I've earned my keep at the 2/4 I'm not going to make a run at it. Also, I know believe 200BB to be the best cushion. This way I could drop 100BB at a given limit and still drop down and have 100+BB to continue my education. My system isn't the Alpha and the Omega, but I know I won't be busting out anytime soon. | ||
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| Re: New, Denver, 8. Oct 2003 16:28 | ||
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| One more thing: moving up in limits because you think it will play closer to "correct" poker is one of the biggest fallacies out there. Baseball analogy: you strike out a lot against a wild pitcher who would just as soon walk you if you were more disciplined...why then would you think you'd be a better hitter against a pitcher that may through more strikes but is more proficient at working the strike zone? Take the base on balls and maybe next time up you'll get the homerun pitch... | ||
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| Re: New, modestmice, 8. Oct 2003 17:18 | ||
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| you are wrong, sorry. baseball analogies dont work for this example. please come to the cardrooms in the bay area where i play and play middle limits with me. then we'll play with the low limit hacks and see how it goes. i assure you there is better players at 6-12 than there is at 1-2. i assure you they play closer to correct than at the 1-2 table. how you can argue with experience is beyond me. on 8. Oct 2003 16:28 Denver wrote: > One more thing: > moving up in limits because you think it will play closer to "correct" poker is one > of the biggest fallacies out there. > Baseball analogy: you strike out a lot against a wild pitcher who would just as soon > walk you if you were more disciplined...why then would you think you'd be a better > hitter against a pitcher that may through more strikes but is more proficient at > working the strike zone? Take the base on balls and maybe next time up you'll get > the homerun pitch... | ||
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| Re: New, Palinya, 8. Oct 2003 21:43 | ||
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| He wasn't saying that higher levels don't have better players. He just said some people try to move up because they are having trouble at the lower limits and they think they will do better at the higher limits because people won't be chasing stuff and catching the river. He was pointing out that this logic is flawed | ||
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| Re: New, modestmice, 8. Oct 2003 21:59 | ||
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| i understand exactly what he was saying and i dont agree at all. i wouldnt suggest that if you suck at poker u should move up in limits as a cure. but poker IS played more "correct" at higher levels and that is all im saying. its not a fallacy, its much closer to fact in my personal experience... on 8. Oct 2003 21:43 Palinya wrote: > He wasn't saying that higher levels don't have better players. He just said some people try to > move up because they are having trouble at the lower limits and they think they will do better > at the higher limits because people won't be chasing stuff and catching the river. He was > pointing out that this logic is flawed | ||
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| Re: New, modestmice, 8. Oct 2003 22:11 | ||
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| the poster is not having problems with his game. there is no reason he cant move up and play higher limits. and also, it isnt flawed logic. at the level i play there are many less players seeing the flop, more folding to bets and less 7-2os's beating pocket aces. in fact i havnet seen that for a long time. there IS less chasing, pocket aces WILL win more, because 9 people are not seeing the flop as in a 1-2 game. thats what this guy is talking about. he is frustrated with loose low limit players. if he moves up it WILL be harder but better in many ways if he is a good player, and from his post he seems to be on the right track.... he is not having problems with his game. on 8. Oct 2003 21:43 Palinya wrote: > He wasn't saying that higher levels don't have better players. He just said some people try to > move up because they are having trouble at the lower limits and they think they will do better > at the higher limits because people won't be chasing stuff and catching the river. He was > pointing out that this logic is flawed | ||
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| Re: New, gary ford, 8. Oct 2003 23:09 | ||
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| makes sense--if you can't hit minor league pitching, move up to the majors they play correctly there | ||
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| Re: New, modestmice, 9. Oct 2003 00:15 | ||
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| read his post: "Do I need to move to higher tables to get a more realistic feel for the game?" yes, yes, yes. 1-2 is realistic?? come on. he has played for 3 months online and is even, moneywise, THAT IS VERY GOOD. he can learn a lot playin 1-2, but you have to agree real poker is at midlimits and up. were not talking about 1-2 moving to 10-20 but jees i think to learn you have to move up and give it a shot. if anything you learn. so some people can do it and some not. i could care less if 1 guy moved up too soon (denver) and got hammered a few times, that doesnt mean anything. i know lots of people that moved and it worked well and some it didnt. poker is a risky game, take risks or dont play. if he can get the bankroll it might suit him better to play at higher limits and see how it goes. thats not bad advice on 8. Oct 2003 23:09 gary ford wrote: > makes sense--if you can't hit minor league pitching, move up to the majors they play correctly there | ||
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| Re: New, bofund, 9. Oct 2003 03:30 | ||
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| Hi, well it seems like I came to the right place for advice etc. I have learned a lot from playing the small tables. I've learned that people will chase you to the river with nothing. People will hang on regardless of the odds and see if they can hit one specific card on the river. I've also learned that you need patience playing this game and that you can't play when you're tired or when you've been drinking. I've also learned that no matter how good your starting hands are, they're just that - a start. I have no problem folding AA if thats all I've got and there's a possible straight on, because people will more than likely have the cards needed. I'm just finding it difficult to judge whether my game is improving or not. I'm not sure that moving up a level is the answer just yet but thankyou for your input | ||
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| Re: New, modestmice, 9. Oct 2003 15:58 | ||
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| on 9. Oct 2003 03:30 bofund wrote: > Hi, well it seems like I came to the right place for advice etc. > I have learned a lot from playing the small tables. I've learned that people will chase you to the river with > nothing. People will hang on regardless of the odds and see if they can hit one specific card on the river. I've > also learned that you need patience playing this game and that you can't play when you're tired or when you've been > drinking. I've also learned that no matter how good your starting hands are, they're just that - a start. I have > no problem folding AA if thats all I've got and there's a possible straight on, because people will more than > likely have the cards needed. > I'm just finding it difficult to judge whether my game is improving or not. I'm not sure that moving up a level > is the answer just yet but thankyou for your input you are on the right track, playing tight and trying to learn as much as you can. thats all u can do playing low limit. once you feel comfortable moving up with a decent bank you will learn a lot more. and unlike some people (denver) i believe in paying tuition and that means you will lose or if doing well, break even when starting out in poker or moving up in limits. if you are lucky lucky, you can start out in poker, learn while making a ton, but that is very rare. even the best players lost when they were learning, so do not pay attention to win/loss, please. this is a common mistake, "i won so im good, i lost so im bad" bullocks! pay attention to your growth as a player, always make the right decisions (including table selection, money management, not playin on tilt etc) and you will do good long term. your already patient, which is a huge asset in poker. bl | ||
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| Re: New, Denver, 9. Oct 2003 07:01 | ||
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| Obviously I've stated my point incorrectly because you have completely misinterpreted it. Of course there are better players at higher limits. That's exactly my point. If a player can't consistently beat a 1/2 game by analyzing table texture, player profiles and mathematical probabilities then that player should not even think about moving up. The fallacy I spoke about was this idea of a "correct" game -- there's no such thing. If there were then many a player on this forum would not be making money at 3/6, 5/10, 10/20 or whatever limit is supposedly closest to this correct concept. If you still disagree then I recommend checking out some of Sredni's posts. They point out (sometimes in bizarre fashion) that EV, starting hand requirements, raising/calling situations can only be defined by how the other players in game have unconsciously chosen to assign value to each. If you can understand how the other players choose to assign value to their own hands and how they choose to assign value to yours then you will be a profitable player -- at that game. My final word -- breaking even at 1/2 means you have, at the very least, no concept of table selection, and more probably an immature grasp of the concepts of poker which a healthy dose of experience and education (on and off the tables) hopefully can provide. | ||
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| Re: New, modestmice, 9. Oct 2003 15:49 | ||
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| breaking even when you include rake is very good, i dont know what planet your from. that is being very critical of a new player, that he has poor game selection, immature...jeeez, what are u talking about, sure anyone that just starts going to be learning but it doesnt mean this guy has any of those problems because he has broken even. MONEY WON OR LOST DOESNT MAKE YOU A GOOD OR BAD PLAYER. you are obviously the kind of person that puts way too much stock into a players win/loss ratio, which is incorrect in judging players. therefore, judging a player harshly because he is even in a short period of time is just nonsense to me. he's playing tight and has the basics down and is learning. i agree with your last statement My final word -- breaking even at 1/2 means you have, at the very least, no concept of table > selection, and more probably an immature grasp of the concepts of poker which a healthy dose of > experience and education (on and off the tables) hopefully can provide. | ||
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| Re: New, CRCarson, 26. Nov 2003 16:55 | ||
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| Denver, I enjoyed the heck out of your posts until you got to the baseball analogy. You're a far more experienced player than I, but I have to ask: don't we lose to the wild players who make their inside straight draws at the river? Not over the long haul, I understand, but in a given night you can get slaughtered at a table with a couple of maniacs on the loose. Thoughts? | ||
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