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Server Time: 12/1/2008 10:58:18 AM PACIFIC |
 Playing By The Book, modestmouser, 8. Oct 2003 00:16 | ||
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| thought about this from a post for a new player....what do u peeps think about these new (or old players for that matter) players that play by the book. is poker really as easy as reading a book and sticking to it? i dont think so, but with all the people that are buying these poker books and showing up to the cardrooms these days i wanted to see what the upfer's thought about this. if you play predictably i have information that i can use against you. if i read all the books you read i can spot your actions a mile away. if you play by the book i dont think that will make you a winning player. a good foundation is important but, i learned by playing 3-6 live, then read much later. i read books for less on how to play and more on how others will play if they are poker geeks. i can always spot the poker geeks (who obviously read everything) at the table, just as easy as the loose no nothings. i have know info on what hands a loose drunk will play, but i can put a poker geek on a hand better. i usually dont see pros/people i think are great play by the book. phil helmuth has said he doesnt read poker books (but he'll sell you one, sucker!) where does natural talent come in? can u read every poker book ever written, have disipline, have no natural talent and become a great player? can any of u spot the real bad player at the table or do you just think he's bad becuase he doesnt play by the book? modest | ||
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| Re: Playing By The Book, KJo, 8. Oct 2003 00:33 | ||
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| I'm of the opinion that everyone should play a bit before getting serious with the books, it helps to understand the concepts if you already have some real live experience. I think everyone with a brain knows that you can't get by on book learnin' alone, so many other factors are required for a successful poker game. Any monkey can study a book and learn everything the book tells them to learn, so obviously it takes more than that. If all you know how to do is follow the instructions, you'll never be good at poker. And there's no substitute for experience. Eli on 8. Oct 2003 00:16 modestmouser wrote: > thought about this from a post for a new player....what do u peeps think about > these new (or old players for that matter) players that play by the book. is > poker really as easy as reading a book and sticking to it? i dont think so, but > with all the people that are buying these poker books and showing up to the > cardrooms these days i wanted to see what the upfer's thought about this. if you > play predictably i have information that i can use against you. if i read all > the books you read i can spot your actions a mile away. if you play by the book > i dont think that will make you a winning player. a good foundation is important > but, i learned by playing 3-6 live, then read much later. i read books for less > on how to play and more on how others will play if they are poker geeks. i can > always spot the poker geeks (who obviously read everything) at the table, just > as easy as the loose no nothings. i have know info on what hands a loose drunk > will play, but i can put a poker geek on a hand better. i usually dont see > pros/people i think are great play by the book. phil helmuth has said he doesnt > read poker books (but he'll sell you one, sucker!) where does natural talent > come in? can u read every poker book ever written, have disipline, have no > natural talent and become a great player? can any of u spot the real bad player > at the table or do you just think he's bad becuase he doesnt play by the book? > modest | ||
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| Re: Playing By The Book, modestmouser, 8. Oct 2003 00:43 | ||
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| i think u would be reallllly suprised how many people think that >I think everyone with a brain knows that you can't get by on book > learnin' alone | ||
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| Re: Playing By The Book, Brent, 8. Oct 2003 06:31 | ||
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| I agree KJo. I played in a home game long before I knew how much information was out there. Once I began reading I found myself saying 'hey, I do that now'. Unfortunately I was saying that to both good and bad moves. Nothing is as useful as experience. Brent | ||
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| Re: Playing By The Book, shorn, 8. Oct 2003 05:51 | ||
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| I am going to disagree with you about book play to a point. It is my opinion that "book only" players can beat any game up to 5-10 by playing exactly as the book states to play in every situation. Will they be the big winners and maximize their earn? No they will not. But, employing the discipline and concepts learned in book play will certainly put you ahead of thousands of others who play recreationally. Now, as you move up in limits, you should expect your hourly earn to decline with str8 book play. I don't know at what limit you will turn into a break even or a moderate loser, but I suspect it would begin at the 10/20 level and by 20/40 there is no question that you can't be a consistent winner on that type of play alone. At the higher levels, poker is such a situational game that black and white rules simply do not work anymore. The reason for this is that your opponents will not make enough mistakes (and their mistakes will generally not be of the same magnitude) to pay you off enough on your winners to compensate you for all of the other times that you are exploited by not deviating from book play where the situation demands it. However, in most games (IMO) it doesn't take much deviation to throw off solid players from running you over. Therefore, many of the concepts that are "in the book" are still big big parts of a lot of top players' arsenals (read the posts from Roy, Barry, Mark G. and others here and you can definitely see it). I think of playing poker correctly (book + situational deviations) as a wheel. The book represent the hub in the middle, and the deviations that you need to be successful player represent the spokes. If any of the spokes are missing, the wheel doesn't turn quite as well (and if too many are missing, it doesn't work at all). If the hub is missing, the wheel breaks all together. | ||
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| Re: Playing By The Book, WilliamS, 8. Oct 2003 06:47 | ||
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| Great points Shorn. In your avg. low limit game no one notices if you play "by the book". 7 of 10 players at that level never consider "your" play in their decisions. Each game is different, some 2-4 games are filled with great players while some 20-40 games are filled with first timers; but generally speaking; a solid "by the book" game gets the money at low limits and a much more flexible, situational gameplan gets the money at the higher limits. This thread is much like the majority of threads on poker with the "it depends" answer. But in my opinion, low limit poker is an exercise in math and pot odds generally speaking. Which goes back to "by the book" poker. Obviously, there are situations that arise with a "certain player" which will call for you to make a call or a fold based on a players read, but the majority of decisions at this level go back to the basic principles found in books such as Jones LLHE. Will | ||
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| Re: Playing By The Book, modestmice, 8. Oct 2003 15:12 | ||
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| great points. on 8. Oct 2003 05:51 shorn wrote: > I am going to disagree with you about book play to a point. It is my opinion that > "book only" players can beat any game up to 5-10 by playing exactly as the book > states to play in every situation. Will they be the big winners and maximize their > earn? No they will not. But, employing the discipline and concepts learned in book > play will certainly put you ahead of thousands of others who play recreationally. > > Now, as you move up in limits, you should expect your hourly earn to decline with > str8 book play. I don't know at what limit you will turn into a break even or a > moderate loser, but I suspect it would begin at the 10/20 level and by 20/40 there is > no question that you can't be a consistent winner on that type of play alone. > > At the higher levels, poker is such a situational game that black and white rules > simply do not work anymore. The reason for this is that your opponents will not make > enough mistakes (and their mistakes will generally not be of the same magnitude) to > pay you off enough on your winners to compensate you for all of the other times that > you are exploited by not deviating from book play where the situation demands it. > > However, in most games (IMO) it doesn't take much deviation to throw off solid > players from running you over. Therefore, many of the concepts that are "in the > book" are still big big parts of a lot of top players' arsenals (read the posts from > Roy, Barry, Mark G. and others here and you can definitely see it). > > I think of playing poker correctly (book + situational deviations) as a wheel. The > book represent the hub in the middle, and the deviations that you need to be > successful player represent the spokes. If any of the spokes are missing, the wheel > doesn't turn quite as well (and if too many are missing, it doesn't work at all). If > the hub is missing, the wheel breaks all together. | ||
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| Re: Playing By The Book, noiseboy, 9. Oct 2003 16:21 | ||
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| I've read all the books. Well maybe not all of them, but quite a few. When combined with frequent play, the books increase the learning curve quite a bit, as long as you don't treat them as gospel. I think the fact that I recognize that I need to vary my play allows me to get more out of poker books than the people who view poker authors as gods, and the books as scripture. Basically, all a poker book is is someone's journal about what worked for them. If you learn it by rote, you might not do so well because every piece of poker advice you ever receive will be dependent on factors like table conditions, the quality of your opponents, etc... Oftentimes the advice given by a poker author is specific to the type of game that author is playing in most of the time, and may not be applicable to your game. The reason I read a lot of different books, is that I take everything with a grain of salt and like to have a lot of differing opinions on all facets of play. I think that learning to play poker is more like learning a language than it is learning math. When I have several different approaches that I can take on how to play any given hand, I have increased my "vocabulary" so to speak, and make myself less predictable. Some players rely too heavily on math, when they should think more about the players they are against, previous plays, what their table image is, etc... For example, if you have something marginal and it's folded to you on the button, I'm not thinking "does Sklansky say to play this hand in this position" I'm thinking "is that player in the BB loose or weak? and does it look like a raise will lose the SB? will the player in the BB be easily bluffed out of the pot if we both miss?" If you are busy trying to remember some silly table of hand values when you should be thinking about this hand in this specific situation, it can cost you a lot of money. Basically, I think books can help you learn how to think about the game, but only if you realize that in the end you have to think for yourself and that for every so-called rule there are many and frequent exceptions, and that you need to keep your mind flexible at all times. Especially in tournaments I've learned that I have to keep my mind completely flexible and open to doing whatever it takes to get there. In one hand, I might have to laydown something big, in another hand, I might go to the river with my 2nd pair if I think it's good. Anyway, good luck! Keep reading the books, but with a critical mind, always questioning everything you read. | ||
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| Re: Playing By The Book, modestmice, 9. Oct 2003 17:30 | ||
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| word...gl on 9. Oct 2003 16:21 noiseboy wrote: > I've read all the books. Well maybe not all of them, but quite a few. When > combined with frequent play, the books increase the learning curve quite a bit, as > long as you don't treat them as gospel. I think the fact that I recognize that I > need to vary my play allows me to get more out of poker books than the people who > view poker authors as gods, and the books as scripture. Basically, all a poker book > is is someone's journal about what worked for them. If you learn it by rote, you > might not do so well because every piece of poker advice you ever receive will be > dependent on factors like table conditions, the quality of your opponents, etc... > Oftentimes the advice given by a poker author is specific to the type of game that > author is playing in most of the time, and may not be applicable to your game. > > The reason I read a lot of different books, is that I take everything with a grain > of salt and like to have a lot of differing opinions on all facets of play. I think > that learning to play poker is more like learning a language than it is learning > math. When I have several different approaches that I can take on how to play any > given hand, I have increased my "vocabulary" so to speak, and make myself less > predictable. Some players rely too heavily on math, when they should think more > about the players they are against, previous plays, what their table image is, etc... > For example, if you have something marginal and it's folded to you on the button, > I'm not thinking "does Sklansky say to play this hand in this position" I'm thinking > "is that player in the BB loose or weak? and does it look like a raise will lose the > SB? will the player in the BB be easily bluffed out of the pot if we both miss?" If > you are busy trying to remember some silly table of hand values when you should be > thinking about this hand in this specific situation, it can cost you a lot of > money. > > Basically, I think books can help you learn how to think about the game, but only if > you realize that in the end you have to think for yourself and that for every > so-called rule there are many and frequent exceptions, and that you need to keep your > mind flexible at all times. Especially in tournaments I've learned that I have to > keep my mind completely flexible and open to doing whatever it takes to get there. > In one hand, I might have to laydown something big, in another hand, I might go to > the river with my 2nd pair if I think it's good. > > Anyway, good luck! Keep reading the books, but with a critical mind, always > questioning everything you read. | ||
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