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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:23:08 AM PACIFIC |
 Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., ReMMy, 7. Oct 2003 19:29 | ||
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| I don't understand why so many of the solid players online do this... Everytime they lose a hand to someone playing 37h or q5o, they have to go on a tirade about how bad of a player this person is. How they made the wrong play etc etc... If everyone played perfect poker, noone would stand to make any money, we'd all just pay the house the rake. The reason you make money in poker is because people make the wrong decision, often times they do it a lot, hand after hand after hand. These are the people you WANT in your game. Don't scare them off, don't make them reconsider their strategy. Compliment them every time they win a pot and wait for your turn to take a share of his stack... Oh well, Ego can be hard to overcome I suppose.... | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Angel, 7. Oct 2003 19:34 | ||
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| on 7. Oct 2003 19:29 ReMMy wrote: > Oh well, Ego can be hard to overcome I suppose.... As well as a lack of self-discipline and self- control. Unfortunately, most of the people doing this are not doing so because they don't realize it's counter-productive; rather they are doing so because they've spent a lifetime cultivating a lack of self-discipline and control and now they are simply helpless. | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Blade, 7. Oct 2003 19:48 | ||
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| I agree with this but does anyone else see the obvious contradiction between that principle ( not making you opponent better) and this forum? It is only a matter of scale. | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Andrew Wells, 7. Oct 2003 21:03 | ||
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| The difference is that the advice was unsolicited, and it indirectly affects the other players in the game. Tapping on the aquarium glass often causes a crack. | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., WilliamS, 8. Oct 2003 06:58 | ||
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| Blade wrote I agree with this but does anyone else see the obvious contradiction between that principle ( not making you opponent better) and this forum? It is only a matter of scale Blade, As I have read and learned here, I have had the same thoughts cross my mind. But I think the great thing about this forum is that its mutually beneficial. I think the 4POKERS, BarryTs, Mark Gregorichs, and Roy Cookes gain information here; as well as give it to all of us "dummys" like me. I view this forum as a sort of team. Not that any of us are colluding with one another but as a group of people continually gaining knowledge and skill to better accomodate are poker games. I feel this forum develops a type of 'synergy" where we all come away with more knowledge. Not one where the "pros" give out knowledge and the rest of us gradually catch up, but one where we all make ourselves better because of each other. I think this came off a little "sappy" but my point remains the same. Will | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Schuster, 8. Oct 2003 08:08 | ||
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| on 7. Oct 2003 19:48 Blade wrote: > I agree with this but does anyone else see the obvious contradiction between that > principle ( not making you opponent better) and this forum? It is only a matter of scale. I don't believe I've ever sat at the same table with any of the frequent posters here. Even if I did, any slim loss of EV due to them getting better has been made up a thousand times over by the good information I've gotten at this board. The difference in telling people to play better at the table is that you lose money when you do it. Lee | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Schuster, 8. Oct 2003 08:08 | ||
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| I should point out that I'm not counting the UPF tournament =P Lee | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Blade, 8. Oct 2003 11:19 | ||
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| Well I thought about this last night as believe I have a pretty good response to my post. To come up with my answer I thought authors such as Phil Hellmuth who by writing a book about his style is potentially costing himself money at the table. Why would he do this? Well the obvious answer of course is that the amount of money he expects to earn from his book excedes the amount he would lose playing poker. Thus writing a book has a +EV for Phil Helmuth. The same is true for this forum. By participating in this forum we will be improving the play of players within the poker community, Thus indirectly collectively costing ourselves money. However we will also be improving our play and directly increasing our earnings. Thus participating in UPF has a +EV. Now, when confronting a poor player about a specific you potentially cost your self money be either improving the player, forcing to tighten up which results in fewer mistakes (Theory of Poker, opponents mistakes good) or by the player simply leaving the table. However unlike writing a book or using UPF this bad player has nothing to return to you of value. You have already made it clear that you consider him an inferior player so you would be incorrect to then seek adive from such player. Thus berating a bad player has -EV. I am not sure as the EV of answering my own questions. The cost of medication may need to be factored in. | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., gary ford, 7. Oct 2003 21:20 | ||
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| on 7. Oct 2003 19:34 Angel wrote: > on 7. Oct 2003 19:29 ReMMy wrote: > > Oh well, Ego can be hard to overcome I suppose.... > > As well as a lack of self-discipline and self- control. Unfortunately, most of the > people doing this are not doing so because they don't realize it's > counter-productive; rather they are doing so because they've spent a lifetime > cultivating a lack of self-discipline and control and now they are simply helpless. > WEll, I've gotten in trouble for this before, but here goes. Self-control is generally a function of maturity, and the influx of young, undisciplined, players is only going to make this situation worse. Whether it is online, or live, this kind of behavior can only hurt the growth of poker. What is the solution? Education would help. Better examples form the TV players would help a lot. The antics of Phil Hellmuth, for example, are inexcusable. Someone needs to make him understand that as a superstar he has a responsiblity. The rest of us need to call the critics to task and offset their boorish behavior with some kind words. Water the flowers, don't pull them out by the roots. Water the boom -- Gary | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., hokie95, 8. Oct 2003 06:38 | ||
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| Happened last night in a fairly loose passive live game. Guy took down a pot with a flush, holding 2-6 hearts in early position. Guy on the button (25-28ish) with a set of aces flew into a rage. "How could you play those cards in that position? You mother &*(^&*( a*(hole!!!" Dealer asked him to calm down, to her credit. Guy who won the hand (a complete calling station who was a delightful middle aged man 2 seats to my right intent on giving away his chips) went into his shell and tightened up. I lost close to $100 because of the jerk. Would it be ironically appropriate to fly into a rage and yell at the yeller for costing me money? Damn. | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Kymmer, 8. Oct 2003 11:47 | ||
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| on 8. Oct 2003 06:38 hokie95 wrote: Guy took down a pot with a flush, > holding 2-6 hearts in early position. Guy on the button (25-28ish) with a set of aces flew > into a rage. Granted, the guy in early position with the 62h probably should not have played against any pre-flop raises,etc - but the guy with the set probably should have assumed the flush draw, albeit, a weak one (if they were the only 2 in the hand) - and lay down his set!! 62h guy got lucky, for sure - sorry he had to endure the rage of a bruised ego.. | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., PairTheBoard, 8. Oct 2003 18:22 | ||
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| Here's an idea. When the jerk flies into his berating rage, start laughing your head off as loudly and unsimpathetically as possible while pointing at the guy and throwing in some "good natured" ribbing and ridicule such as, "I saw that coming a mile away". Then lean over to the middle aged man and say something like, "nice work. I've been trying to put that idiot on tilt all weekend. We should have some fun with him now he he". The jerk should be fair game for "good humored" needling the rest of the night. Every time he loses a hand it should be the funniest thing you ever saw. | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., 4 POKER, 7. Oct 2003 19:54 | ||
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| on 7. Oct 2003 19:29 ReMMy wrote: > I don't understand why so many of the solid players online do this... > > Everytime they lose a hand to someone playing 37h or q5o, they have to go on a > tirade about how bad of a player this person is. How they made the wrong play > etc etc... > > If everyone played perfect poker, noone would stand to make any money, we'd all > just pay the house the rake. The reason you make money in poker is because > people make the wrong decision, often times they do it a lot, hand after hand > after hand. > > These are the people you WANT in your game. Don't scare them off, don't make > them reconsider their strategy. Compliment them every time they win a pot and > wait for your turn to take a share of his stack... > > Oh well, Ego can be hard to overcome I suppose.... Hi, To me, being a solid player goes alot further than just playing good cards and playing them correctly. The #1 part of poker that will continuously help you to grow finacially, is discipline. You must practice it in *every* aspect of the game or you're going to be losing a very big edge that you may have once possessed. Telling players how bad they play is one form of a lack of self discipline, and a sure sign of ignorance. Arrogance is how they come across, but they're actually ignorant to the effects that it has. They don't see the big picture when they do things like this. They actually think that they're making somebody "feel bad" (because their ego was crushed in some way) by berating another player, when in all essence, they're actually helping THE REST OF THE TABLE, and therefore hurting themselves in the pocket. $$. Yeah, wouldn't poker be boring, and useless if everyone played perfectly? It sure would. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., PairTheBoard, 8. Oct 2003 05:10 | ||
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| I think it's an example of the old saying, "He who knows does not speak. He who speaks does not know." Those who do this are acting from their own insecurity. Losing the hand jars their confidence which they try to bolster by showing off their supposed superior knowledge. They are wannabe players and as such have thier own weaknesses which can be exploited. If you choose to remain at their table your best course of action is to expose their weakness and take thier money. Of course if I knew anything I suppose I would be keeping my mouth shut. Then again, I don't think anyone reads my posts as closely as I do, which makes them a good reminder for me more than anyone else. lol | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Ingise_Eesti, 8. Oct 2003 07:07 | ||
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| I'm a novice myself (4 months experience) and know not to criticise other people's play for this very reason but I've got to admit that sometimes it's just really hard to bite my lip and of the times I actually have said something it's been along the lines of "Man! you are impossible to read" followed by a quck "Nice hand!". | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Angel, 8. Oct 2003 07:43 | ||
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| on 8. Oct 2003 05:10 PairTheBoard wrote: > I think it's an example of the old saying, > > "He who knows does not speak. He who speaks does not know." Lao Tzu Just posting the credits....;) | ||
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| Re: Pointing out players mistakes costs YOU money..., Flatout_Mainiac, 8. Oct 2003 11:30 | ||
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| I berated a board last night does that count? After hitting top sets on AA, KK, JJ and finally QQ and loosing everyone to either a straight or flush all within 2 hours and going 0 fer on every S&M cat 1 and 2 hand in a 3 hour period last night, I lost it a little on the board. I felt better after.... But, I never ever comment on a players play, I do consider that wrong. But, sometimes it is hard as heck to bite you tongue when a poor player only hits his hand when you're investing heavily in the pot and then promptly spends your losing with the rest of the table. | ||
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