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Server Time: 12/1/2008 2:11:16 PM PACIFIC |
 Those Queens Are Trouble, Bart Mann, 6. Oct 2003 12:21 | ||
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| I don’t expect anyone to reply to this—although you certainly may if you a) wish to empathize, or b) have had a recent similar experience. This past Friday night I managed to get away from the wife and kid for a full night of poker at the local card room. Yay! Or so I thought . . . I start by entering a 10-handed winner-take-all NLHE tournament ($100 buy-in)—winner walks away with a cool thousand bucks. The first 5 guys go down pretty quickly, so there’s five of us left at the table. Blinds escalate at an alarming pace, and you only start with 300 in chips, so the key is to not pass up a good opportunity. One to the left of the BB I get dealt QQ. My first playable hand of the night. I’m sitting at 225 with 75 in blinds to my immediate right.. I put in a bet of 150. Fold, Fold, then the chip leader asks the dealer to count my chips. Oh crap. The dealer tells him 75 left, so the chip leader makes it another 75 to go. I call. Chip leader shows AA. No help in the middle, and I’m done after playing only one flop. Not to be discouraged, I jump onto a 3/6 Holdem table. Second hand of the night I get dealt QQ—again. I bet, guy to my left raises and guy to his left re-raises. Two more raises come in, and now we’ve got 5-way action on a capped pot—5 bets each. A $75 pot before the flop on a 3/6 table! Flop comes 9-10-J rainbow. I’ve got an overpair and an open-ended straight draw. I put the raise leader on Aces, and figure I’ve got the best of it. Betting is capped again. Turn comes A. Realizing I’m in trouble, I let the hand go—and so does everyone else. Winner shows his pocket Aces as predicted, guy to my left shows pair of 9s, one guy mucks, then the other guys shows—you guessed it—pocket queens. I was drawing dead to my set the whole time. Second hand of the night and I’m down 1 1/2 stacks, spending the rest of the night playing from behind. I’m really beginning to hate pocket queens. - Bart - | ||
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| Re: Those Queens Are Trouble, jackeboy, 7. Oct 2003 02:35 | ||
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| I hear ya. I was in a $30 multi-table tournie online last night. Had about T7,000, blinds at 500/1000. Last four hands folded to a raiser and I get the ladies in EP. There were 33 left out of 312 - I was just hoping to coast into the money (30th would have doubled my stake) and maybe make a move when it was safe but after the junk I had seen the ladies looked so pretty that I bet out $3000. Folds to chip leader (about T55,000) who thinks for a while and then puts me all in. From what I saw of him he was a chip-bully so I thought for a while and called. I was relieved to see he had K4o but not as relieved as he was to a K on the river after four blanks. Damn those ladies. 'evolution, not revolution - i want to evolve, not revolve' Jack | ||
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| Re: Those Queens Are Trouble, Bart Mann, 7. Oct 2003 06:12 | ||
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| Ouch. At least the hands I got beat with were good. King/Four offsuit? What the hell. I've recently added a new rule to my long list of Limit Holdem Do's and Don'ts: "With pocket queens, pay no more than TWO bets to see the flop." I figure if someone goes out of their way to re-raise you in this situation, you pretty much know you're dominated. And in terms of No Limit, I'm done pushing all in with queens with 6 or more players at the table. It feels to me like 5 or less (including myself) is the way to go. Here's to lots of pocket kings. | ||
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| Re: Those Queens Are Trouble, Big_Loser1, 9. Oct 2003 02:18 | ||
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| I agree no going all in with queens in no-limit. I was playing 4-handed got QQ on button. One right puts in a decent raise, I didn't put him on anything big, maybe AJ or medium pair. I decide to go all in hoping to get him to fold AJ or AT so he couldn't out draw me. He calls and did I love to see his cards-66, that is until a 6 came on the river. I think if I just re-raised him saw the flop and then put him all in when he could see he had nothing that might have worked, but I guess I'll take QQ against 66 any day of the week. Also by just doing a nice size raise you can still see the flop and see if an A or K come and decide what to do then. | ||
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| Re: Those Queens Are Trouble, mroban, 10. Oct 2003 14:35 | ||
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| I have learned the hard way about putting all my chips in, seeing that i made the "correct play" with a big advantage only to watch a miracle on the river oust me. The only problem is that if you are out of position you have to make a decision on the flop. Whatever the flop comes down, you will have to be worried that the caller made a set (because, after all, he called your healthy raise). So you are either going to have to: a) check the flop and make a decision on his play (which would give him a free draw at making his set on the turn; b) making a bet and risking getting re-raised. I usually take the second course of action. If I get called, I am done with the hand and will try to just play it for a showdown. If he folds great. If he re-raises I muck it. Move on. Since a player only hits his set 1 out of 5 times (I think thats right) 80% of the time you will be ahead there if no K or A hits the flop (barring a lucky 2 pair but he shouldn't be calling a healthy raise preflop with J8 or the equivalent). I would be careful with JTx on the flop. Why put in all your chips for a hand that becomes garbage if an ace or king hit the flop? In Bart's case though, given the nature of this tourney, he should have just put them allin (not that it would have made a difference). With such a small stack relative to the blind structure (btw, a horrible tournament structure - thats an $100 crapshoot) might as well stick it in. You were pot committed anyway Bart, so you may as well just see all 5 cards. | ||
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| Re: Those Queens Are Trouble, Easy E, 8. Oct 2003 09:34 | ||
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| With all that money in there, and not knowing your set was dead (not that it would have helped to catch it), wouldn't calling one bet to try for a 8 or K (which have given you the nuts, based on the hands played and let go, evidently) been worth considering a little? Was it a two-toned board? | ||
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| Re: Those Queens Are Trouble, Bart Mann, 8. Oct 2003 10:44 | ||
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| A fair question. I’ll tell you what I was thinking, and you tell me if I’m crazy . . . The eventual winner acted first in the hand. After the turn, he bet out again for $6. The first guy folds, then it's my turn to act. With two people to my left who each called 5 bets twice in a row, I didn't think there was any way I would get to see the River for one bet. In hindsight I was obviously wrong—because everyone mucked—but I don’t think there was any way I could have known that was coming. Of the five people left in the pot, two of them had already made their sets before the River (wired Aces and wired 9s). If the board paired in any way, shape or form on the River (another 9, 10, J or A) I'm a sitting duck to either a boat or 4 of a kind. With an 8 or a K (the only two cards that could have helped me) I get a straight and the best hand—unless one of the bettors was sitting out there with KQ or AQ. It was a snap decision, because I obviously didn’t have much time to work all of the possibilities, but in 30 seconds or so I came to the conclusion that a) someone would raise if I bet, and b) even if I made my hand, there were too many ways to lose. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Those Queens Are Trouble, Easy E, 8. Oct 2003 12:14 | ||
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| "A fair question. I'll tell you what I was thinking, and you tell me if I'm crazy . . ." By definition, asking a crazy person if you are crazy..... is crazy. " Flop comes 9-10-J rainbow. I put the raise leader on Aces, and figure I've got the best of it..Turn comes A." > The eventual winner acted first in the hand. After the turn, he bet out again for $6. > The first guy folds, then it's my turn to act. HUGE question- where were you, middle position? You said you "bet" preflop and got raised 4 times. Are you saying the AA was UTG and call-reraised preflop? If you were assuming the player had AA later in the hand, why did you call 4 bets cold pre-flop? Were all the rest raising with junk hands or big connectors, or could one of them had AA or KK? If you're going to ride the tidal wave early on, you should probably plan on riding it out later if you have decent potential, even if the set doesn't come. > I didn't think there was any way I would get to see the River for one bet. With 25 BB out there after the flop, and with a possible draw to the nuts when the Ace comes (unless KQ, but then you can draw to tie... and 8 is good for a split and possibly a win), you're still getting 12.5:1 on mere pot odds alone for the initial 1st bet. Could you expect the Ace, putting a nut straight and top set out there, to slow people down or not? If the Ace made a four-flush draw, you might get a lot of action to deal with, you might get a wait and see. The fold by the nines surprised (and impressed) me, but obviously you had a much better chance of getting by without another raise Here's an even crazier thought- what about YOU raising the turn? If you're going to make this play (to slow people down, it won't get too many out... or maybe it would have, evidently!), a big pot and raising a lead bettor on the expensive street might work occasionally, or knock out a single K or Q hand.... > there was any way I could have known that was coming. probably not, but see the "Ace slowdown" comment. Flop raises mean a lot less about turn action than you would think, at least at lower limits IME. "If the board paired .. I'm a sitting duck ". You're out of there if the river pairs leaving 27-30 BB behind.. but it only has to work about 5-10% to make it worthwhile...(assuming a scoop, of course, not a split) > I get a straight and the best hand-unless one of the bettors was sitting out there with KQ or AQ. Those hands are already ahead, but you can't get hurt by them any more than you are. 8 cards to draw to, you "know" AA and your QQ, so 44 cards to get from the deck = 5.5:1 odds on the river card.... good for a 4-way split, as long as you are winners (make it 3-way, in case the 8 makes you second-best instead). Note also- if you expect only one more raise, AND you'll split, you'll still have 15 BB for your 2BB investment on the turn... I think I would have called one bet (what does your call look like to the others, by the way, when you call a lead capper on the turn? Might they be thinking "slowplay!" and slow down?), maybe one raise if there WASN'T a two-flush out there. I don't know if I could have called 3 more bets besides that, but the money might be there to do it.... > It was a snap decision,...in 30 seconds or so I came to the conclusion that a) someone would raise if I bet, and b) even if I made my hand, there were too many ways to lose. I'm not sure about the "too many ways to lose if I made my hand" comment, since the only worry about that is if an 8 comes. You aren't in there with two pair, so full house is no concern. No, tough decision to make quickly. This process might help you in the future, now that you've had a chance to think about it (whether to reinforce folding or chance calling and live with the variance). I just wanted to make sure that you thought of that possibility, not that you had to call. One game, I had QcQd in middle position in $2/4 game, I raise, 7 players eventually call 4 bets. Flop comes two-flush, two to a straight AND an Ace... and I had none of it. I dumped to an early bettor, figuring that there were too many draws against my set draw and I was SURE at least 2 Aces were out there. Woman next to me chided me, saying i should have called because of the large pot. I disagreed with her and felt the fold was good, even if pot odds might have dictated a long-shot draw to the non-nuts (It helped that the winner did have an Ace, the spade came on the turn and i would only have had my Queens) | ||
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| Re: Those Queens- whoops, Easy E, 8. Oct 2003 12:32 | ||
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| see, too much typing, not enough thinking. Your river odds were 36:8 or 4.5:1, not 5.5:1. You could eat 2 raises and still draw for the winner. I think you call and see the river. Whether you dump a set of Queens if the Q comes on the river..... yeah, especially if you assume Aces (since a single King beats you as well) You call the turn raises if they come, looking for a K or 8 (no 3-flush, please) and accept a split if it comes. If the straight doesn't come, you're gone, even with a set of Queens, unless you think they are ALL as crazy as I am... | ||
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| Re: Those Queens- whoops, Bart Mann, 8. Oct 2003 13:38 | ||
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| To answer your earlier question—among the initial five pot-jammers I was second to act, behind AA. On the very first round of betting he bet out, I raised (with QQ), the guy next to me called (didn’t see his hand), then it went reraise-reraise-reraise (pair of 9s, other QQ, and the guy with AA). At that point the pot was capped at 5 bets with 5 players. As you can see by the order of events, this pot was out of control. The guy with the 9s put in the second raise (??), QQ put in the third raise (would you put in a THIRD raise with QQ?) and AA capped it off with the final raise. At this point I came to one of two conclusions—either at LEAST two players in this pot were playing like idiots, or everybody but me was holding no less than KK. And when the flop came 9-10-J and betting was capped 5 ways again, the little voice in my head told me that these people were not letting go of their hands under ANY circumstances. So when the turn came and AA bet, I was sure we were in for another round of reraise-reraise-reraise. In hindsight I was wrong, and the Ace on the turn scared everyone out of the pot—but I’m sure you’ve been there before. I was more than willing to buy the next card for $6, but at that time the actions of other players told me it was going to cost $30. | ||
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| Re: Those Queens- whoops, Easy E, 8. Oct 2003 19:13 | ||
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| > To answer your earlier question—among the initial five pot-jammers I was second to act, behind AA. On > the very first round of betting he bet out, I raised (with QQ), the guy next to me called How can the Aces "bet out" preflop? They can call or raise, but not bet. > hand), then it went reraise-reraise-reraise (pair of 9s, other QQ, and the guy with AA). At that point > the pot was capped at 5 bets with 5 players. So, why did you call with Queens? Were you ONLY looking to flop a set? " The guy with the 9s put in the second raise (??), QQ put in the third raise (would you put in a THIRD raise with QQ?) " Was the table loose-aggressive in the past? Then I can see the 9's reraise from later position... and the QQ as well ("if i'm playing, might as well make it big") > idiots, or everybody but me was holding no less than KK. And when the flop came 9-10-J and betting was > capped 5 ways again, the little voice in my head told me that these people were not letting go of their hands under ANY circumstances. So when the turn came and AA bet, I was sure we were in for another round > of reraise-reraise-reraise. Again, with 25 BB in before the turn, your nut draw (K) at 10:1 or your two straight draws (8 and K, at 4.5:1) probably had odds to put 4 bets in if a raising war occurs on the turn (assume 3 other players for 4 bets = implied odds of 37:4 or over 9:1) Even at 5 bets, you're 40:5 or 8:1, with implied bets of another 3 bets on the river if you catch.... split cuts you in half, so it might not be worth it, but it's pretty close. Again, when you decide to call 3 cold preflop, you have to also think what you probably will have to do on the flop... and if the flop is workable, then you're probably going to the river at least. | ||
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