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Server Time: 12/1/2008 2:48:04 PM PACIFIC |
 Laying down KK pre-flop, PBG, 6. Oct 2003 09:11 | ||
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| I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. We're two tables away from the money. What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, SmellsLikeVictory, 6. Oct 2003 10:06 | ||
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| Call, of course. Unless you know specifically that this person will only go all-in with rockets, the only hand you fear in this situation. Even if they draw out with Ax, you're not getting busted by this stack, so it's an easy, easy call. I hope your epiphany wasn't to fold here because that would be a big mistake. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Dr_Monkey, 6. Oct 2003 11:49 | ||
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| It depends on what type of player she is. Has she not played a hand for a long time? Is she the type that thinks AK is unbeatable? Does she overbet small pairs? Not knowing any of the above, I think I would have called. I would guess she thought you were trying to steal. I'd have to put her on AK. I think I would play the odds that she doesn't have AA. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, mroban, 6. Oct 2003 13:06 | ||
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| Thats an easy call for me. If the situation were reversed and I had half the stack, the call would be even easier. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, KJo, 6. Oct 2003 13:15 | ||
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| I'd smile, call, then (likely) watch all the color drain from her face when she sees your KK. What'd she have? Eli on 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > We're two tables away from the money. > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, PBG, 6. Oct 2003 14:51 | ||
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| She had pocket rockets. My old table had broken and I was at the new table barely five minutes, so I did not have enough time to read her. I did not lay the kings down. I called and promptly got my butt handed to me. Anyhow as I reviewed this on my way home, I realized that a laydown may have been in order. I mean prior to the hand I was in good shape, stealing enough blinds to keep me afloat and the purpose of playing (at that level) was (should've been) to get into the money by surviving at the remaining two tables, not necessarily to win THAT particular pot. A lot of people fall in love with their cards and I know that folding such beauties is painful. MOST individuals thought I did the right thing by calling and they tell me it was just a bad beat. But I feel that strategically speaking (in the big picture of things), folding and letting the aggressive players kill each other off may have been the wiser path to take. Just curious to see what other players on this message board would've done. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Risky Business, 6. Oct 2003 15:23 | ||
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| In the grand scheme of things, you don't really know if this player is particularly aggressive or not, so labeling her as aggressive (hoping she and others would kill each other off) might not have been possible. I'm more interested in what happened to the other half of your chips after this loss. You seem to blow off the rest of the tourney. Massive tilt? No cards? Part of your reasoning for calling was that you had twice as many chips going into the showdown. on 6. Oct 2003 14:51 PBG wrote: > She had pocket rockets. My old table had broken and I was at the new table barely five minutes, so I did not have enough time to read her. But I feel that strategically speaking (in the big picture of things), folding and letting the aggressive players kill each other off may have been the wiser path to take. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, gary ford, 6. Oct 2003 15:31 | ||
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| on 6. Oct 2003 14:51 PBG wrote: > She had pocket rockets. My old table had broken and I was at the new table barely five > minutes, so I did not have enough time to read her. > > I did not lay the kings down. I called and promptly got my butt handed to me. Anyhow as > I reviewed this on my way home, I realized that a laydown may have been in order. I mean > prior to the hand I was in good shape, stealing enough blinds to keep me afloat and the > purpose of playing (at that level) was (should've been) to get into the money by surviving > at the remaining two tables, not necessarily to win THAT particular pot. > > A lot of people fall in love with their cards and I know that folding such beauties is > painful. MOST individuals thought I did the right thing by calling and they tell me it > was just a bad beat. But I feel that strategically speaking (in the big picture of > things), folding and letting the aggressive players kill each other off may have been the > wiser path to take. Just curious to see what other players on this message board would've > done. Hi PBG ==where have you been? All the young guys are going to say call the all in. Not being that young im going to disagree. Your logic in your post is sound, especially the part about THAT ONE HAND. Survival first, then kick ass whenever you can. And yes what did happen to the rest of your chips? You had some left after the all in call??? | ||
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| The rest of my chips, PBG, 7. Oct 2003 08:07 | ||
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| I had maybe 8000 left after that. The other "bad beat" was a truly bad play. Q 10, both hearts. Flop brings a Kh, Jh and a Q. Open ended straight flush draw and an established pair. Bet. Everyone folds except one player. Turn brings a 2, not suited to anything (a blank I think). Other player goes all in, has about 7500. I think I'm doing okay w/ all the possible outs so I call. He turns over AQ. River brings a big ol' blank, leaving me w/ 500 which is anted and blinded away. Not pretty. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, KJo, 6. Oct 2003 16:34 | ||
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| I think anytime your KK gets beat by Aces it's officially a Bad Beat. I know you play in LA as I do, and I've seen people go all in with some crazy sh*t at tournaments here, so given that there's only one hand that dominates you and about a zillion that you dominate, and you had twice as many chips, I still like the call. Even if your strategy is to let the others kill each other off, there are times that you must get in the fray when you (should) have much the best of it. I think this was one of them. It was just bad luck- how often do you see KK and AA on the same hand? BTW, was this at the Bike? Eli on 6. Oct 2003 14:51 PBG wrote: > She had pocket rockets. My old table had broken and I was at the new table barely five > minutes, so I did not have enough time to read her. > > I did not lay the kings down. I called and promptly got my butt handed to me. Anyhow as > I reviewed this on my way home, I realized that a laydown may have been in order. I mean > prior to the hand I was in good shape, stealing enough blinds to keep me afloat and the > purpose of playing (at that level) was (should've been) to get into the money by surviving > at the remaining two tables, not necessarily to win THAT particular pot. > > A lot of people fall in love with their cards and I know that folding such beauties is > painful. MOST individuals thought I did the right thing by calling and they tell me it > was just a bad beat. But I feel that strategically speaking (in the big picture of > things), folding and letting the aggressive players kill each other off may have been the > wiser path to take. Just curious to see what other players on this message board would've > done. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Angel, 7. Oct 2003 00:25 | ||
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| on 6. Oct 2003 16:34 KJo wrote: - how often do you see KK and AA on the same hand? > Eli If you have KK in a ten handed game - someone will have AA 4.39% of the time. For what it's worth: If you have QQ - there is a 8.4% chance that exactly one player has an overpair and a 0.2% chance that 2 players do. JJ - 12.2% for 1 player, 0.5% that 2 players do. TT - 15.5% and 1.0% 99 - 18.6% and 1.7% 88 - 21.3% and 2.4% 77 - 23.8% and 3.2% 66 - 26.0% and 4.1% 55 - 28.0% and 5.1% 44 - 29.8% and 6.1% 33 - 31.3% and 7.1% 22 - 32.7% and 8.2% | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Pedro, 7. Oct 2003 07:12 | ||
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| sorry 4.39 % no frican way. AA is only dealt .29% of the time how in the world does the odds increase just cause king king was dealt something is wrong with your math there. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Angel, 7. Oct 2003 07:41 | ||
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| The math is correct. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Pedro, 7. Oct 2003 07:50 | ||
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| sorry I read it wrong that is possible I guess. 4-5 times out of 100 your kings will not be the best hand. Just read it incorrectly it makes sense. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, KJo, 7. Oct 2003 09:39 | ||
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| It basically means that for every (approx.) 25 times you have KK, someone else will have AA once, less so in a 9-handed or less game, right? I like those odds. Eli on 7. Oct 2003 07:50 Pedro wrote: > sorry I read it wrong that is possible I guess. 4-5 times out of 100 your kings will not be the best hand. > Just read it incorrectly it makes sense. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, gary ford, 7. Oct 2003 19:31 | ||
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| unless the flop contains an ace | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, mroban, 10. Oct 2003 08:28 | ||
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| I think those are the odds someone with an ace will flop an overpair OR have pocket AA. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, SmellsLikeVictory, 6. Oct 2003 21:31 | ||
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| Don't let the resultss affect your thinking. This is an easy call everytime. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Schuster, 6. Oct 2003 21:46 | ||
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| "Always" and "never" are two of the most dangerous words in poker. Lee | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Schuster, 6. Oct 2003 20:07 | ||
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| I'd ask for more information. A "healthy stack" isn't enough to figure it out. Do you have 5000 or 30000 left? Either one might be considered a healthy stack, but there are drastic differences. Assuming you have no read on this opponent, and you're playing the typical opponent and the odds, I'd still need to know more. Lee | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, mroban, 10. Oct 2003 08:38 | ||
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| Lee: Im hardly the expert here but no way I would ever lay this down UNLESS and only unless I had a dead read on this person as someone who will only reraise in this position with AA. She could have just as easily had QQ or AK (not as likely but I have seen that play many times). I have even seen players (not good ones) make this play with JJ and TT. Having said that, I don't think its correct to analyze this completely in terms of a 96% chance you have the best hand. Dont we have to factor in what else could someone have to make a play like this? If she could reasonably only have 5 different hands to make this play, AA, KK, QQ, AKs and possibly JJ (with the last two being unlikely) I would look at this as having a slightly better than 50% chance of being ahead at this point (assuming AA and QQ are equal with a low probability of AKs and JJ or worse pair). With a "healthy stack" thats more than enough to call with (for me anyway). But a fold isn't a terrible play either for the same reason. I am just going to play it unless I can rule out QQ or worse. If the situation were reversed, and I were a bit shortstacked, I would probably also make the play as well. Then I could factor into the equation that someone with a big stack might be trying to steal raise and shut everyone out. No way you can fold KK in that spot. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 6. Oct 2003 23:11 | ||
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| i would call, and i think its a call that 100% of tourny vets would make. but of course on this forum im sure there are tricky wannabes that would lay it down. two tables away is far enought that you could blind out if u get a bunch of junk, u just cant fold in that spot and ever expect to make it to the final table. big lay down is bs, its a bad laydown. :) 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > We're two tables away from the money. > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 6. Oct 2003 23:12 | ||
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| i havnet read the rest but jees, ...i would call, and i think its a call that 100% of tourny vets would make. but of course on this forum im sure there are tricky wannabes that would lay it down. two tables away is far enought that you could blind out if u get a bunch of junk, u just cant fold in that spot and ever expect to make it to the final table. big lay down is bs, its a bad laydown. call call call!!!! :) on 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > We're two tables away from the money. > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Pedro, 7. Oct 2003 07:03 | ||
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| I'm sorry but you guys that all would call is the reason you lose lol. There are reason to lay down I'm not saying I would lay down in this situation but how much was the raise? Half your stack could be 2500 could be 10000 what was the raise in this situation. If someone goes all in for 10000, i have to consider the 800 dollar raise chump change I wouldn't put half my chips at risk with just king king there. If someone is going all in there is reason they are. Don't be stupid they know the chip leader will call if they have something really good. He can afford to gamble. If she went all in there is a reason. There are other factors. Was she in bad position, did she need to make a move? I don't think she did. She is on the button why would she challenge the chip leader unless she has a really strong hand? Honestly would AK raise all in there or just raise a considerable amount or just call. The two hands I would of put her on is AA or QQ. She has a made hand already the question was is she higher then yours? Either way she is on one of those 2 hands and do you really want to take the chance that its AA? It really depends what half your chips was. If it wa 2500 I would of called and if I lose I still have 2500. If it was 10000 its an easy fold for me. I would move on to the next hand. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Roy Cooke, 7. Oct 2003 07:15 | ||
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| I call under all circumstances except against the player would ONLY make that play with AA or KK..... Why??...I want to bust out one player (Thereby improving my chances to win and cash) and give me more chips... If you play not to lose...you will lose! Play to win Roy Cooke on 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > We're two tables away from the money. > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, gary ford, 7. Oct 2003 09:16 | ||
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| on 7. Oct 2003 07:15 Roy Cooke wrote: > I call under all circumstances except against the player would ONLY make that play > with AA or KK..... > > Why??...I want to bust out one player (Thereby improving my chances to win and cash) > and give me more chips... I submit that you are the expert, and I am not. According to her latest post, AFTER the hand in question ,she had T8000 which means she had more than T 16,000 when the hand started. The tournament will probably go 100 hands or so, why gamble most of your chips on one hand? No question you play to win not to lose, but is this the right way? Gary > > If you play not to lose...you will lose! > > Play to win > > Roy Cooke > > on 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > > We're two tables away from the money. > > > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Schuster, 7. Oct 2003 09:47 | ||
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| I agree with gary here. KK is good, but what hands will the opponent make this play with? AA, KK, maybe QQ and AK. The only hand you truly crush is QQ. AK has a chance at hitting. KK is a small possibility. He could get looser and make this sort of play with AQ and JJ, but you still have to worry about the ace hitting with AQ. For 7200 more chips, I would have to think about letting it go. Lee | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Jav, 7. Oct 2003 11:41 | ||
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| I've seen many players go all in with a smaller pair trying to steal an early raise. It is not rare for someone to *hope* that the inital raiser was just being a bully with A,K or worse, and then go all-in with a small pair hoping that they will win it right there. And if they don't, they expect they still have a chance to win the race. It's not a play that's good to make often, but it still happens all the time. Unless I had a very good read on the other player as an absolute rock I would not lay down K,K. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Schuster, 7. Oct 2003 17:51 | ||
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| Well I'm not saying I'd fold it all the time, but I would consider it. He's raising you a huge amount here, for all his chips, against the chip leader. Maybe I am a little too tight. Lee | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, gary ford, 7. Oct 2003 18:20 | ||
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| or maybe the others are a little too loose?? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Schuster, 7. Oct 2003 19:16 | ||
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| Heh touche... I think the bottom line is that it's a big function of your opponent, and the best decision should be based on that. This has been one of Roy Cooke's biggest points and I really don't think it gets discussed enough. When I don't have a read on my opponent, I tend to believe they would play like the average player, and more often than not, I subconsciously think that is like me. I would very rarely make that move with anything worse than QQ, and I would be hesitant to make it with QQ. If I felt my opponent would do think the same, it's just a matter of applying Bayes theorem. If you have the best hand, you will win 9100 chips about 70% (rough estimate) of the time. If you have the worst hand, you will lose 7200 chips about 82% of the time. While the EV is in favor of calling, I believe that the tournament situation makes it a fold. This is, of course, only based on the way I might handle the situation against an EP chip leader raising. Also I believe that when you don't know your opponent, it's better to error on the side of caution. It might mean paying a hand off that you might fold if you had a better read, or it might mean folding KK in this situation. Again, maybe I am too tight, but in tournaments, you only get one chance. If I believe that I am one of the better players in the tournament, I won't like to play large pots unless I am a *BIG* favorite. Even if the other guy has AK, aces come up often enough. The chance of him having AA combined with the chance of him winning when he doesn't make me really consider folding. Lee | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 7. Oct 2003 21:45 | ||
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| i never seem to agree with lee. on 7. Oct 2003 17:51 Schuster wrote: > Well I'm not saying I'd fold it all the time, but I would consider it. He's raising you a huge amount > here, for all his chips, against the chip leader. Maybe I am a little too tight. > > Lee | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, 4 POKER, 7. Oct 2003 22:04 | ||
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| sorry, hit the message button twice. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 7. Oct 2003 23:04 | ||
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| 4 P, the "never" was a obscure joke from lee's post: "Always" and "never" are two of the most dangerous words in poker. Lee Hey mm, I never said you were wrong, I just said that I was "surprized" by the statement, that's all. And yes, agreeing and disagreeing will always be a part of poker....it keeps it interesting! Nor do I, or would I, expect you to agree with everything that I say, either. But.....I do believe that if you don't agree with someone on the forum (and that is totally fine), then perhaps you should just tell them why you don't agree on that particular post, as it occurs....as opposed to just saying, "I never seem to agree with" (so and so). It just sounded a little harsh imo. (sorry). 4P- > > issues. on 7. Oct 2003 22:05 4 POKER wrote: > > Hey modestmouser, > > > > "Wow"....That statement really surprizes me. I think Lee is "spot on" with so many different things, and so many > > aspects of the game, as well. And I'm not just saying that to give someone an ego stroke, either. But I do believe > > in giving credit, where credit is due, so........ > > > > > > 4P- | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, 4 POKER, 7. Oct 2003 23:10 | ||
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| It's all cool. (I hear ya). on 7. Oct 2003 23:04 modestmouser wrote: > 4 P, the "never" was a obscure joke from lee's post: > > "Always" and "never" are two of the most dangerous words in poker. > > Lee > > > Hey mm, > > I never said you were wrong, I just said that I was "surprized" by the statement, that's all. And yes, agreeing and > disagreeing will always be a part of poker....it keeps it interesting! Nor do I, or would I, expect you to agree with > everything that I say, either. But.....I do believe that if you don't agree with someone on the forum (and that is > totally fine), then perhaps you should just tell them why you don't agree on that particular post, as it occurs....as > opposed to just saying, "I never seem to agree with" (so and so). It just sounded a little harsh imo. (sorry). > > 4P- > > > > > issues. on 7. Oct 2003 22:05 4 POKER wrote: > > > Hey modestmouser, > > > > > > "Wow"....That statement really surprizes me. I think Lee is "spot on" with so many different things, and so many > > > aspects of the game, as well. And I'm not just saying that to give someone an ego stroke, either. But I do believe > > > > in giving credit, where credit is due, so........ > > > > > > > > > 4P- | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, 4 POKER, 7. Oct 2003 22:04 | ||
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| test | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, 4 POKER, 7. Oct 2003 22:05 | ||
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| Hey modestmouser, "Wow"....That statement really surprizes me. I think Lee is "spot on" with so many different things, and so many aspects of the game, as well. And I'm not just saying that to give someone an ego stroke, either. I guess I'm just giving credit where I think it's due, that's all. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 7. Oct 2003 22:20 | ||
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| i dont agree with him on any post ive seen. im sure i would agree with a lot of lee's views, i just havnt seen one yet! nothing wrong with that. im sure good at poker, a fine citizen etc. but i really really disagree with his post here. but thats what this forum is all about, isnt it? mm issues. on 7. Oct 2003 22:05 4 POKER wrote: > Hey modestmouser, > > "Wow"....That statement really surprizes me. I think Lee is "spot on" with so many different things, and so many > aspects of the game, as well. And I'm not just saying that to give someone an ego stroke, either. But I do believe > in giving credit, where credit is due, so........ > > > 4P- | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, 4 POKER, 7. Oct 2003 22:46 | ||
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| on 7. Oct 2003 22:20 modestmouser wrote: > i dont agree with him on any post ive seen. im sure i would agree with a lot of lee's views, i just havnt seen one yet! > nothing wrong with that. im sure good at poker, a fine citizen etc. but i really really disagree with his post here. but > thats what this forum is all about, isnt it? > > mm Hey mm, I never said you were wrong, I just said that I was "surprized" by the statement, that's all. And yes, agreeing and disagreeing will always be a part of poker....it keeps it interesting! Nor do I, or would I, expect you to agree with everything that I say, either. But.....I do believe that if you don't agree with someone on the forum (and that is totally fine), then perhaps you should just tell them why you don't agree on that particular post, as it occurs....as opposed to just saying, "I never seem to agree with" (so and so). It just sounded a little harsh imo. (sorry). 4P- > > issues. on 7. Oct 2003 22:05 4 POKER wrote: > > Hey modestmouser, > > > > "Wow"....That statement really surprizes me. I think Lee is "spot on" with so many different things, and so many > > aspects of the game, as well. And I'm not just saying that to give someone an ego stroke, either. I guess I'm just giving credit where I think it's due, that's all. > > > > > > 4P- | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 7. Oct 2003 22:37 | ||
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| btw, i always agree with you man, yer spot on! on 7. Oct 2003 22:05 4 POKER wrote: > Hey modestmouser, > > "Wow"....That statement really surprizes me. I think Lee is "spot on" with so many different things, and so many > aspects of the game, as well. And I'm not just saying that to give someone an ego stroke, either. I guess I'm just > giving credit where I think it's due, that's all. > > 4P- | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Schuster, 8. Oct 2003 16:21 | ||
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| Wow, look what I started! I'm still not convinced that you should always call, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. And thanks for the kind words Dave, I appreciate it. Lee | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, gary ford, 7. Oct 2003 09:21 | ||
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| on 7. Oct 2003 07:15 Roy Cooke wrote: > I call under all circumstances except against the player would ONLY make that play > with AA or KK..... > > Why??...I want to bust out one player (Thereby improving my chances to win and cash) > and give me more chips... I submit that you are the epert and I am not. According to her latest post, AFTER the hand she still had T8,000, which means before the hand she had at least T 16,000. The tournament will probably have 100 hands total or more, why risk that much on one hand? Play to win , not to not lose but is this the right way.? > > If you play not to lose...you will lose! > > Play to win > > Roy Cooke > > on 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > > We're two tables away from the money. > > > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, KJo, 7. Oct 2003 09:53 | ||
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| I completely agree with Roy, and say that if someone isn't going to risk half their stack in this situation they have no business playing tournaments because they're playing too scared. I'm amazed at all the posters who propose playing very tightly and folding here- typically you would all preach playing very tight, wait for the big hands, then pounce, especially if you have twice as many chips. Here's the "big hand," so why not pounce? Is she just supposed to only play AA? You can't just fold all night. And Roy, where's the familiar sig? Is life not good today? I know it ain't here in California, but that's a whole other story :) Eli on 7. Oct 2003 07:15 Roy Cooke wrote: > I call under all circumstances except against the player would ONLY make that play > with AA or KK..... > > Why??...I want to bust out one player (Thereby improving my chances to win and cash) > and give me more chips... > > If you play not to lose...you will lose! > > Play to win > > Roy Cooke > > on 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > > We're two tables away from the money. > > > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, Pedro, 7. Oct 2003 12:05 | ||
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| I'm not saying I would fold KK all the time to an all in raise but this time I think I would of. The signs showed she had ace ace. She went all in after the chip leader raised. You only do that if you have a very strong hand. Especially if you haven't been there for a while. I mean a 7000 chip raise is a substantial raise. However , the good thing that came out of this is that you won't fold when you feel you have the best hand, and that should scare people from trying to reraise you when you really are bluffing. Really you should always go by instincts, it will tell you when your beat or not. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, KJo, 7. Oct 2003 13:39 | ||
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| Pedro- not sure where you play, but here in LA where I play (and where I believe PBG played this hand) it is very common for people to go all in with far less than AA, even in the situation as described (and most of the time I've seen people make this play and get called, they didn't have anything close to AA). Eli on 7. Oct 2003 12:05 Pedro wrote: > I'm not saying I would fold KK all the time to an all in raise but this time I think I would > of. The signs showed she had ace ace. She went all in after the chip leader raised. You only > do that if you have a very strong hand. Especially if you haven't been there for a while. I > mean a 7000 chip raise is a substantial raise. > > However , the good thing that came out of this is that you won't fold when you feel you have > the best hand, and that should scare people from trying to reraise you when you really are > bluffing. > > Really you should always go by instincts, it will tell you when your beat or not. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 7. Oct 2003 22:00 | ||
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| Eli, i wanna play sum poker when im down there with ya!! yer usually right on. -modest mouse on 7. Oct 2003 13:39 KJo wrote: > Pedro- not sure where you play, but here in LA where I play (and where I believe PBG played this > hand) it is very common for people to go all in with far less than AA, even in the situation as > described (and most of the time I've seen people make this play and get called, they didn't have > anything close to AA). > > > Eli > > on 7. Oct 2003 12:05 Pedro wrote: > > I'm not saying I would fold KK all the time to an all in raise but this time I think I would > > of. The signs showed she had ace ace. She went all in after the chip leader raised. You only > > > do that if you have a very strong hand. Especially if you haven't been there for a while. I > > mean a 7000 chip raise is a substantial raise. > > > > However , the good thing that came out of this is that you won't fold when you feel you have > > the best hand, and that should scare people from trying to reraise you when you really are > > bluffing. > > > > Really you should always go by instincts, it will tell you when your beat or not. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, KJo, 8. Oct 2003 00:38 | ||
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| Yeah, if you can avoid getting "freerolled" in the Hollywood Park or Bike parking lots, LA is a decent place to play. Eli on 7. Oct 2003 22:00 modestmouser wrote: > Eli, i wanna play sum poker when im down there with ya!! yer usually right on. > -modest mouse > > on 7. Oct 2003 13:39 KJo wrote: > > Pedro- not sure where you play, but here in LA where I play (and where I believe PBG played this > > hand) it is very common for people to go all in with far less than AA, even in the situation as > > described (and most of the time I've seen people make this play and get called, they didn't have > > anything close to AA). > > > > > > Eli > > > > on 7. Oct 2003 12:05 Pedro wrote: > > > I'm not saying I would fold KK all the time to an all in raise but this time I think I would > > > of. The signs showed she had ace ace. She went all in after the chip leader raised. You only > > > > > do that if you have a very strong hand. Especially if you haven't been there for a while. I > > > mean a 7000 chip raise is a substantial raise. > > > > > > However , the good thing that came out of this is that you won't fold when you feel you have > > > the best hand, and that should scare people from trying to reraise you when you really are > > > bluffing. > > > > > > Really you should always go by instincts, it will tell you when your beat or not. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 8. Oct 2003 00:49 | ||
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| heh, the only prob at HP is im a horseplayer so i would be distracted by the ponies. i can handle the ruffians, ive been hanging out at tracks for years... on 8. Oct 2003 00:38 KJo wrote: > Yeah, if you can avoid getting "freerolled" in the Hollywood Park or Bike parking lots, LA is a decent place > to play. > > > Eli > > on 7. Oct 2003 22:00 modestmouser wrote: > > Eli, i wanna play sum poker when im down there with ya!! yer usually right on. > > -modest mouse > > > > on 7. Oct 2003 13:39 KJo wrote: > > > Pedro- not sure where you play, but here in LA where I play (and where I believe PBG played this > > > hand) it is very common for people to go all in with far less than AA, even in the situation as > > > described (and most of the time I've seen people make this play and get called, they didn't have > > > anything close to AA). > > > > > > > > > Eli > > > > > > on 7. Oct 2003 12:05 Pedro wrote: > > > > I'm not saying I would fold KK all the time to an all in raise but this time I think I would > > > > of. The signs showed she had ace ace. She went all in after the chip leader raised. You only > > > > > > > do that if you have a very strong hand. Especially if you haven't been there for a while. I > > > > mean a 7000 chip raise is a substantial raise. > > > > > > > > However , the good thing that came out of this is that you won't fold when you feel you have > > > > the best hand, and that should scare people from trying to reraise you when you really are > > > > bluffing. > > > > > > > > Really you should always go by instincts, it will tell you when your beat or not. | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, mroban, 10. Oct 2003 08:46 | ||
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| always take the valet parking option IMHO | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, KJo, 10. Oct 2003 09:49 | ||
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| I always do, good rule of thumb is to avoid parking in lots that require a watchtower. Eli on 10. Oct 2003 08:46 mroban wrote: > always take the valet parking option IMHO | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmice, 10. Oct 2003 20:43 | ||
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| lol on 10. Oct 2003 09:49 KJo wrote: > I always do, good rule of thumb is to avoid parking in lots that require a watchtower. > > > Eli > > on 10. Oct 2003 08:46 mroban wrote: > > always take the valet parking option IMHO | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, gary ford, 7. Oct 2003 14:11 | ||
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| That little voice in the back of your head is almost always right--its primal--- I think in terms of strategy not individual hands, this does not represent playing scared. Apparently, LA has the live version of the maniacs online, which should be wonderful news for you LA players. just dont mistreat the dummys or bleed them to death. Fuel the boom--gary | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 7. Oct 2003 21:59 | ||
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| i agree with whole heart. i want to know what lee and others tourny record is in NL. from the posts i just dont know they play that way and do well in NL. certainly not gonna win tournies..... on 7. Oct 2003 09:53 KJo wrote: > I completely agree with Roy, and say that if someone isn't going to risk half their stack > in this situation they have no business playing tournaments because they're playing too > scared. > > I'm amazed at all the posters who propose playing very tightly and folding here- > typically you would all preach playing very tight, wait for the big hands, then pounce, > especially if you have twice as many chips. Here's the "big hand," so why not pounce? Is > she just supposed to only play AA? You can't just fold all night. > > And Roy, where's the familiar sig? Is life not good today? I know it ain't here in > California, but that's a whole other story :) > > Eli > > on 7. Oct 2003 07:15 Roy Cooke wrote: > > I call under all circumstances except against the player would ONLY make that play > > with AA or KK..... > > > > Why??...I want to bust out one player (Thereby improving my chances to win and cash) > > and give me more chips... > > > > If you play not to lose...you will lose! > > > > Play to win > > > > Roy Cooke > > > > on 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > > > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > > > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > > > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > > > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > > > We're two tables away from the money. > > > > > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, modestmouser, 7. Oct 2003 22:46 | ||
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| thanks for clarification Roy. just want to add, i saw the same situation on the 2003 WSOP on espn, and gee, robert varakoni called and lost all in with KK to AA. i guess he should have folded because one other hand might have dominated him pre-flop. . on 7. Oct 2003 07:15 Roy Cooke wrote: > I call under all circumstances except against the player would ONLY make that play > with AA or KK..... > > Why??...I want to bust out one player (Thereby improving my chances to win and cash) > and give me more chips... > > If you play not to lose...you will lose! > > Play to win > > Roy Cooke > > on 6. Oct 2003 09:11 PBG wrote: > > I had an epiphany. A really big one. No Limit Hold 'Em tourney. I'm sitting > > there with pocket cowboys. Blinds are 100-200, 25 antes. I'm 3rd to act and > > make it $800. I have a pretty healthy stack so it's not going to kill me. > > Everyone folds except the button who goes all-in. She has about half my stack. > > We're two tables away from the money. > > > > What would you do under such circumstances and why? | ||
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| Re: Laying down KK pre-flop, gary ford, 8. Oct 2003 00:10 | ||
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| on 7. Oct 2003 22:46 modestmouser wrote: > thanks for clarification Roy. just want to add, i saw the same situation on the 2003 WSOP > on espn, and gee, robert varakoni called and lost all in with KK to AA. i guess he > should have folded because one other hand might have dominated him pre-flop. No need to be sarcastic--- as fate wouilkd have it -- in the 2nd hand of an SNG. i picked up guess what?--KK i brought it in with a modest raise , was reraised,-- having no read whatsoever on the players I made it 3-- ended up 3 way all=in SO an academic discussion might get different results than one would find in the heat of battle. I was depending on the law of averages because i was flying blind. The flop was xxx the turn was---the dreaded A----- and the river??? A lovely KING ----- what did my opponent have-------??-- AK---- lol --SO. in a way everyone was right its just an opinion--------Come to Las Vegas--modest-- we'd love to have you. With some nice fava beans> > > . on 7. Oct 2003 07:15 Roy Cooke wrote: > > I call under all circumstances except against the player would ONLY make that play > > with A | ||