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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:13:12 AM PACIFIC |
 What to do when you flop nothing, Numie, 5. Oct 2003 20:42 | ||
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| This applies mainly to AK and AQ. These two hands have been costing me a lot of money lately. It's easy to play these when you flop a pair, but what should you do if you flop nothing? I usually raise with these hands pre-flop and usually get some callers. When I flop nothing I have to decide how to play them. Sometimes I play aggressively and bet. If people call me, then what? Do I bet again on the turn? What about the river? Lately I've been betting to the river and getting called down by middle pair or something. The reason I bet like this is because if I check, it will be fairly obvious that I missed the flop and now I can be easily bluffed out of the pot. What should I do in these situations? Should I bet or check depending on the board? Should I vary my play and switch between betting and checking? Any help will be appreciated. | ||
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| Re: What to do when you flop nothing, Piers Majestyk, 5. Oct 2003 21:22 | ||
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| A lot depends on your position and number of opposition players. Say you raise and only get the blinds to call and the flop comes down J82 rainbow go ahead and bet as you likely have the best hand. If one person calls and the turn is say a 6 I would probably fire another bet into the pot. If he calls then I will check the river unless I help because he will only call me if he has me beat. Now you raise early position and get 3 callers plus the BB and you get the same flop. Now there is roughly 10.5 bets in the pot. Your bet here is not going to drive anyone out that has you beat or has any kind of draw. The best thing to do in my opinion is check and see what kind of action happens behind me. If there is a bet and a raise I'm probably done with hand, if there are only a bet and a caller or two then I will see the turn because I would be getting plenty odds to call to hit my over cards 41:6. If I don't improve on the turn I am probably done with the hand. I guess what i am saying is against a couple of players with position go ahead and fire a bet or two but against a field of players proceed with caution if you proceed at all, don't get married to the hand. Another approach I took for a while was more Caroian. I stopped raising with these hands preflop a large amount of the time and waited to see how I faired after the flop. When you hit your hand good and someone else gets a piece of the flop you can extract a little extra from them because they will have a hard time putting you on AK< AQ if you don't raise preflop. Another advantage is that you keep the pot smaller which makes it incorrect for some hands to chase if they happen to hit say bottom pair where they very well might have the odds to come after you correctly if there was a raise and 3 to 4 callers. I seemed to do well playing it this way but I have to admit going back to raising these hands the majority of the time because it's just more my style but if your having trouble with these hands perhaps you should use this approach for a little while. Maybe with only one bet in preflop you will be able to get away from the hand more easily if facing resistance than if you have 2 or 3 bets in preflop. Good luck, they are definately tough situations to learn to handle but are also one of the most imprtant in myh opinion on the way to becoming a very good player. | ||
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| Re: What to do when you flop nothing, SendMoney, 5. Oct 2003 21:30 | ||
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| A somewhat simple solution to this dilemna is to be inclined to limp in with this hand in early position and raise it from late position. By doing this you can go for the check/raise in early position when you flop a pair with the strength of your hand fairly well hidden. If you miss the flop you can simply check/fold and not worry about it since you only have one bet invested. If not check/call the flop if you figure you can see the turn for one bet and if you don't hit there then it's probably a good play to fold to a big bet. From late position you can be more inclined to raise, if it tends to buy the button and drive out the blinds. If the flop misses you then you can bet and even raise the flop hoping to improve on the turn, if the turn misses you and it's checked to you then you should probably take the free card and if the river misses you then you might have to fold to a bet. I see players plowing away a significant amount of their bankroll trying to hammer AKs or AQs as if it was an overpair - it's not. If the flop comes all rags like 2 5 9 then you're not going to be able to bet out hands like A9 or 1010 just because you're trying to represent an overpair, even pocket pairs that are under all 3 flop cards will sometimes get stubborn and call you down. By the way remember against a flopped set your overcards are drawing completely dead unless you have some straight or flush draw working. This happened to me the other day when I had AK in late position, the flop came 2 5 9 rainbow, the turn was an A, the river was an A and guess what my opponent flipped up? 22 for a full house. This might sound a bit conservative but when I have AK AQ KQ or any such big overcards I've developed a rule for playing them - I don't call one big bet with no pair unless I have at least 4 outs to the nuts, such as the nut gutshot straight draw. So if there is a bet and a raise on the flop and I have no pair and no flush or straight draw working I'll fold. If I don't improve on the turn I'll also fold to one large bet without something else working. These rules imply a relatively full table. If I'm heads up I get much tougher. If I raise AK from late position and only the big blind calls and the flop comes 224 or some such non-sense that probably doesn't figure to have helped anyone I'll actually bet my AK more like it's a pair - sometimes I lose this way, but sometimes the opponent has A10 and figures I missed too. I play mostly micro limits so whether this strategy will work at $10/$20 or $30/$60 I cannot say. | ||
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| Re: What to do when you flop nothing, SendMoney, 5. Oct 2003 21:38 | ||
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| By the way the more I think about it the more I think you should raise with AK, especially AKs because of the flush potential. The reason for this is to prevent opponents from betting into you whenever you raise and an A hits the flop. Sometimes the bettor actually has the A, and sometimes they don't. By being just as inclined to raise AK as you are to raise KK QQ JJ then you're actually protecting your big pairs from people who want to bluff you off your big pairs whenever an A hits the flop. To the less observant opponents it won't make a difference, but it will definitely give the smart players something to think about. | ||
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| Re: What to do when you flop nothing, Mark Gregorich, 5. Oct 2003 22:52 | ||
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| I will generally play AK and AQ aggressively preflop if I'm first in (although I know of some successful hold'em players who tend to limp with AQ in early position, rather than raising with it). Then, I will base my betting decisions (assuming I don't flop a pair, flush draw, or straight) on a few considerations: A. The number of opponents in the pot. Against only 1 or 2 players, I am far more likely to bet (especially if I think there's a decent chance they'll fold), than against 4 or more - I usually check against 4 or more opponents. Having exactly 3 opponents makes it trickier, so you need to take other factors into account. B. The texture of the board. I will check and fold to multiple opponents when the board is somewhat connected: 67T for example. However, I will usually bet into two or three opponents with my AK when the flop is 882 or 239, as everyone is likely to have missed. Also, assuming you have AK, if several players have called my raise and the flop comes Q high, I find that folding is generally the best option, as you will often be against KQ or AQ, and you're in bad shape with this flop (just 3 outs, if they will even win it for you.) C. The play of my opponents. If they automatically fold when they miss the flop, then by all means take a shot at it. Also, did they cold call my raise, or are they in the blind? Cold calls tend to mean stronger hands, such as pairs, and pairs won't fold on small flops, as they generally will put the raiser on AK or AQ (why would they call a preflop raise with a small-medium pair if they felt you had a bigger pair?) So, I'm less likely to try and run an ace high hand through a few folks who cold-called my preflop raise, but I'll try and take the pot against the blinds. On the turn, I may continue to bet if I feel the callers on the flop were just "taking one off" to try and improve. Be careful if the draws get there, as your opponents were likely to be calling your flop bet with either a pair or a draw, neither of which they'll be likely to relinquish on the turn. Its a mistake to automatically check here, though, just because you got called on the flop. On the river, its time to stop if you don't improve. Sometimes your ace high will win, and if your opponents have a pair, they will most certainly pay off a river bet. So, you are basically risking a bet to win nothing by betting the river. Sometimes you can check and induce a busted draw to bet here, too. If you feel that's whats going on, then call. There are exceptions to checking the river when you don't improve, though. If you feel your opponent has been calling you with a small pair type of hand, then you may be able to steal the pot from him if a scare card hits. For example, if you have AQ, a K on the river might make a hand fold that has you beat. Also, the appearance of a 4 card flush on the board may do the trick. Just don't bet when the board pairs, or a small card comes - your opponents won't believe that these cards could help your hand, and they will call because they can beat AK. Mark | ||
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| Re: What to do when you flop nothing, Tom Mc Cabe, 6. Oct 2003 11:39 | ||
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| Do you check-raise or have the image of a check-raiser on the turn? If you have been able to establish this image against the opponents in the pot your check in this situation may not mean an automatic bet from your opponent. My point is that the turn check-raise, even at the risk of a free card when you have the best of it , will help you with all drawing hands whether they are over cards or flush straight draws. Sometimes losing a battle helps win a war. "Guy who lives in glass house should get dressed in basement. | ||
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