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Server Time: 12/1/2008 12:23:05 PM PACIFIC |
 Poker Thinkings, Sredni Vashtar, 5. Oct 2003 01:20 | ||
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| Thank you for opening Sredni's thought experiment posting. Many of you are hoping for another picture of Englebert Humperdinck, Sredni well knows, but this might upset The Caro, as it will remind him of mispent youth. So this crumb of Sredni's feeble mind, will have to suffice. Thought experiment: You are FORCED to ONLY call before the flop in limit holdem. You can't raise, but your opponents can. Very unhappy happening. Forced into the dishonorable profession of calling station. Not quite the world's oldest profession...but... Ha. But clever ferret that you are, your strategy undergoes alteration, readying for altercations. Questions: a)What general adjustments would you make preflop? b)Post flop? c)Would a call ferret have a chance to win? How much would it affect EV. d)In what specific situations would your handicap hurt you the most. Think about this. Suppose your OPPONENT always just calls before the flop...but otherwise plays well. How do you best exploit this? And pray tell,(yes it's ok to pray to gods other than Sredni himself) how this thinkingness might help one's real poker game. Sredni Vashtar, went forth..... | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, gary ford, 5. Oct 2003 10:12 | ||
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| on 5. Oct 2003 01:20 Sredni Vashtar wrote: > Thank you for opening Sredni's thought experiment posting. > > Many of you are hoping for another picture of Englebert Humperdinck, Sredni > well knows, but this might upset The Caro, as it will remind him of mispent > youth. So this crumb of Sredni's feeble mind, will have to suffice. > > Thought experiment: > > You are FORCED to ONLY call before the flop in limit holdem. You can't raise, > but your opponents can. Very unhappy happening. Forced into the dishonorable > profession of calling station. Not quite the world's oldest > profession...but... > > Ha. But clever ferret that you are, your strategy undergoes alteration, > readying for altercations. > > Questions: > > a)What general adjustments would you make preflop? > > b)Post flop? > > c)Would a call ferret have a chance to win? How much would it affect EV. > > d)In what specific situations would your handicap hurt you the most. > > Think about this. Suppose your OPPONENT always just calls before the flop...but > otherwise plays well. How do you best exploit this? > > And pray tell,(yes it's ok to pray to gods other than Sredni himself) how this > thinkingness might help one's real poker game. > > Sredni Vashtar, > > went forth... Interesting--can't decide if you are a Swami or a Guru--- What you are describing is the behavior of most players in a loose passive game-- not raising being the main behavior of a passive player. That said, it would appear that this prohibition would lead to more multiway pots from the limit limpers, thus devaluing certain hands ( AK, AQ ) . If raised, reraise with the hands you would have raised with originally. This could eliminate some of the EP limpers. Flop play would not change much since betting patterns would not be affected, you will need to read your opponents to make the right decision. As far as your Opponent having the same prohibtion, your raise will help define his real holdings and when the flop comes, you're back to reading once more. As far as your EV or any long term effect, if both you and your opponent have this prohibition an equal number of times, there should be no statistical effect. it's just another factor to the decision-making process Your writing style is interesting. I guess, in your case, referring to yourself in the 3rd person can be forgiven. The Gary | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, Sredni Vashtar, 5. Oct 2003 20:40 | ||
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| Dear Gary, Ford, The, While Sredni has recovered, there was a brief moment of discombobulation when your name was first encountered. For a fraction of a second (Sredni will employ human time for clarity sake), it was believed your name was 'gray ford'. Visions of a boring human troubled ferret consciousness. Juxtapose "gray ford" with "yellow Volkswagen" or "purple porsche" or a sultry "pink miata". But that was Sredni's mistake, not yours, and it is inferred from your postering that you have a forgiving nature, and Sredni asks you extend that here. > Interesting--can't decide if you are a Swami or a Guru--- Sredni is a long yellow brown polecat ferret. He is also a god, perhaps not on the scale of Zeus, or even Apollo, but a god nonetheless. > . If raised, reraise > with the hands you would have raised with originally. This could eliminate some of > the EP limpers. There you have it, proof of non-gray -fordness. Limp reraise, no less. Devilish, devious, and completely against the rules. But a gray ford obeys the rules, and a gray ford Gary is not. On a strategic note, much value could be regained by the larcenous limp reraise that you have outlined. > > Your writing style is interesting. I guess, in your case, referring to yourself in > the 3rd person can be forgiven. Sredni is not bound by the same conventions that generally apply to humans. (Sredni has worked on the assumption that Gary is a human until otherwise noted.) > > The Gary Thank you for your reply. Please infer only goodnaturedness in this post. Sredni Vashtar, went forth ...his thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white..... | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, gary ford, 6. Oct 2003 15:45 | ||
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| as were mine---- | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, gary ford, 5. Oct 2003 10:13 | ||
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| on 5. Oct 2003 01:20 Sredni Vashtar wrote: > Thank you for opening Sredni's thought experiment posting. > > Many of you are hoping for another picture of Englebert Humperdinck, Sredni > well knows, but this might upset The Caro, as it will remind him of mispent > youth. So this crumb of Sredni's feeble mind, will have to suffice. > > Thought experiment: > > You are FORCED to ONLY call before the flop in limit holdem. You can't raise, > but your opponents can. Very unhappy happening. Forced into the dishonorable > profession of calling station. Not quite the world's oldest > profession...but... > > Ha. But clever ferret that you are, your strategy undergoes alteration, > readying for altercations. > > Questions: > > a)What general adjustments would you make preflop? > > b)Post flop? > > c)Would a call ferret have a chance to win? How much would it affect EV. > > d)In what specific situations would your handicap hurt you the most. > > Think about this. Suppose your OPPONENT always just calls before the flop...but > otherwise plays well. How do you best exploit this? > > And pray tell,(yes it's ok to pray to gods other than Sredni himself) how this > thinkingness might help one's real poker game. > > Sredni Vashtar, > > went forth... Interesting--can't decide if you are a Swami or a Guru--- What you are describing is the behavior of most players in a loose passive game-- not raising being the main behavior of a passive player. That said, it would appear that this prohibition would lead to more multiway pots from the limit limpers, thus devaluing certain hands ( AK, AQ ) . If raised, reraise with the hands you would have raised with originally. This could eliminate some of the EP limpers. Flop play would not change much since betting patterns would not be affected, you will need to read your opponents to make the right decision. As far as your Opponent having the same prohibtion, your raise will help define his real holdings and when the flop comes, you're back to reading once more. As far as your EV or any long term effect, if both you and your opponent have this prohibition an equal number of times, there should be no statistical effect. it's just another factor to the decision-making process Your writing style is interesting. I guess, in your case, referring to yourself in the 3rd person can be forgiven. The Gary | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, gary ford, 5. Oct 2003 10:14 | ||
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| oops | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, 4 POKER, 5. Oct 2003 13:34 | ||
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| on 5. Oct 2003 10:14 gary ford wrote: > oops LOL!.........remember somethin' Gary, if you're going to refer to yourself in the third person, "The Gary".........then there's no exceptance for any "oops"! At least that's what 4 POKER thinks! 4P- | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, Formless, 5. Oct 2003 11:47 | ||
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| > a)What general adjustments would you make preflop? Can't raise to isolate, can't steal blinds. Kind of sounds like a low limit game. I am disappointed when I want to raise preflop, but I call. > b)Post flop? Your big postflop hands will be well disguised, I will use this to my advantage. . Like maybe wait until the turn before raising. > c)Would a call ferret have a chance to win? How much would it affect EV. It's hard enough to win at this game, so no. To say it would not have much effect is similar to saying it doesnt really matter at all whether you raise or call preflop. Raising preflop may seem like a crapshoot but it offers some excellent value on account of the volume, so you lose this. > d)In what specific situations would your handicap hurt you the most. > Well when there are say 5 limpers and I have AA on Button, I'm quite disappointed. > Think about this. Suppose your OPPONENT always just calls before the flop...but > otherwise plays well. How do you best exploit this? It's harder to put them on a hand. > And pray tell,(yes it's ok to pray to gods other than Sredni himself) how this > thinkingness might help one's real poker game. I might just call preflop with a monster if it will bend a frequent opponent's brain and get me great postflop action. | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, Sredni Vashtar, 5. Oct 2003 20:49 | ||
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| Dear Formless, Thanks for your reply. Your nick brings on notions of anarchy, refusal to conform to meaningless convention, or maybe you are a ghost of some sort, Sredni does not know (the idea that gods are all omniscient is quaint but untrue). > > Well when there are say 5 limpers and I have AA on Button, I'm quite disappointed. Sredni believes this is correct. Pure unadulterated value raiserings in position with much limperage already gracing the pot would be the most negative EV situation to Sredni's way of thinking. Sredni Vashtar.... went forth.... | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, Mark Gregorich, 5. Oct 2003 17:41 | ||
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| Good post. > Questions: > > a)What general adjustments would you make preflop? I would have to eliminate playing all the hands I play hoping to just win the blinds, or hands I three bet with (assuming I can't reraise either, if that's allowed then this part is irrelevant) on isolation plays. For example, raising in late position when no one is in with hands like 98 suited; when I do this in a "regulation" game, I'm counting on the combination of either winning the blinds, making the best hand, or getting my opponents to fold at some point, in order to make this hand profitable. When I don't give my opponents a chance to fold preflop, its likely that that swings the value of the hand to negative. Also, if I can't reraise a late position raiser with my small pairs or medium aces (not that I always do this anyway) to knock out the blinds, then those hands should probably go in the muck (playing 66 against 2 or 3 opponents is just not a good spot). > > b)Post flop? >There should be some good deception value here. If you start with a big hand, you can figure out where the power lies in the pot, and then decide how to play against it (by checkraising, betting out into the aggressor, etc.) I would probably slow play a few more of my big hands until the turn if I don't feel it will significantly jeopardize my chances of winning the pot, since opponents are less likely to be wary of me (as I didn't raise preflop). > c)Would a call ferret have a chance to win? How much would it affect EV. I think this depends on the texture of the game. In a loose, passive game, I think you can overcome it - you will be playing better starting hands than your opponents, who generally aren't raising either. Very little shot in a tight, aggressive game full of good players (but who wants to play in these games, anyway?) In games populated by a mixture of both types of players, I think you can offset some of your disadvantage by being extra mindful of position, and playing extremely well after the flop. As long as there are a few very poor players in the game, I think you can still beat the game. Your bottom line will definitely be hurt, though, as some of your tools are missing. > > d)In what specific situations would your handicap hurt you the most. > Playing against tight blinds in late position with no one in yet > Think about this. Suppose your OPPONENT always just calls before the flop...but > otherwise plays well. How do you best exploit this? >You must be careful raising him preflop, as many of his calls are with raising hands. I would try to just play very strong hands against him. I really don't like entering a pot against a good player unless I feel I have the best starting hand (assuming I'm not in the blind). Save your marginal hands for spots against players who play poorly post-flop. Mark | ||
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| Re: Poker Thinkings, Sredni Vashtar, 5. Oct 2003 21:03 | ||
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| Dear Mark, > I would have to eliminate playing all the hands I play hoping to just win the > blinds, or hands I three bet with (assuming I can't reraise either, if that's allowed > then this part is irrelevant) on isolation plays. For example, raising in late > position when no one is in with hands like 98 suited; when I do this in a > "regulation" game, I'm counting on the combination of either winning the blinds, > making the best hand, or getting my opponents to fold at some point, in order to make > this hand profitable. When I don't give my opponents a chance to fold preflop, its > likely that that swings the value of the hand to negative. Also, if I can't reraise > a late position raiser with my small pairs or medium aces (not that I always do this > anyway) to knock out the blinds, then those hands should probably go in the muck > (playing 66 against 2 or 3 opponents is just not a good spot). > > > > > b)Post flop? > >There should be some good deception value here. If you start with a big hand, you > can figure out where the power lies in the pot, and then decide how to play against > it (by checkraising, betting out into the aggressor, etc.) I would probably slow > play a few more of my big hands until the turn if I don't feel it will significantly > jeopardize my chances of winning the pot, since opponents are less likely to be wary > of me (as I didn't raise preflop). > > > c)Would a call ferret have a chance to win? How much would it affect EV. > I think this depends on the texture of the game. In a loose, passive game, I > think you can overcome it - you will be playing better starting hands than your > opponents, who generally aren't raising either. Very little shot in a tight, > aggressive game full of good players (but who wants to play in these games, anyway?) > In games populated by a mixture of both types of players, I think you can offset some > of your disadvantage by being extra mindful of position, and playing extremely well > after the flop. As long as there are a few very poor players in the game, I think you > can still beat the game. Your bottom line will definitely be hurt, though, as some > of your tools are missing. Sredni has come to think that maybe, and feel free to deny this if it would hurt your standing in the human community, that you may very well be a ferret. There, it has been said. The cat, er..ferret..is out of the bag. But Sredni will continue on the assumption that you will deny ferretness, yet your thinkings are inline with this online ferret for the most part. > > > > d)In what specific situations would your handicap hurt you the most. > > Playing against tight blinds in late position with no one in yet Sredni imagine this applies to the tighter, more shorthanded type games. However, as was posted above by another UPFer, wouldn't NOT raising a bunch of limpers with powerhouse hands be a bigger leak of EV. Of course, this type of situation may not come up in bigger games. > > >You must be careful raising him preflop, as many of his calls are with raising > hands. I would try to just play very strong hands against him. I really don't like > entering a pot against a good player unless I feel I have the best starting hand > (assuming I'm not in the blind). Save your marginal hands for spots against players > who play poorly post-flop. > > Mark Thank you for your well reasoned post. Glad to see you find value in pondering. Sredni Vashtar.... went forth.... | ||
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