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Server Time: 12/1/2008 1:02:19 PM PACIFIC |
 Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, socal_1111, 4. Oct 2003 16:46 | ||
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| I have had the worst two days of hold 'em in my short "career." I need some advice or words of wisdom from you players who have contemplated Poker Homicide against players who play 7,2o from early pos. and beat my pocket Aces. What do I do: How do you lose your entire bankroll in two days? Let me tell you how... I am playing .50/$1 NL and am finding I cannot use many of the skills necessary to be a good higher stakes player. How do I practice the essential skills needed w/out moving up to games that I can't afford?? I am getting sooo frustrated. Example of the last two days: Get AA on the button... lose to 222 on the river because he chased. Get A-high flush on flop... lose to boat on river. Have A,8s in LP... flop A,8, 9... bet big, one caller... turn's a blank... go All-in... he calls... beats me w/ A,9. And the hand that ended it for me mentally: AA in MP... flop 7,2, x... He's in EP and beats my Aces with two pair, 7's and 2's!!!!! HE FREAKING PLAYED 7,2o from EP. I don't know how to play at this level. I want to be very tight and aggressive but I don't know if that's possible until later and higher stakes. When I try to play more hands, I don't feel comfortable and lose to chasers anyways. I can't seem to get a handle on how to play in these games, but I can't afford to move up either... yet I feel I may do better against better players. Am I full of it?? Do I just not know what I'm talking about and should stick to 52 card pick-up instead??? I am to the point where I will limp in with KK. Help me, critisize me, tell me to stop whining, anything. P.S. can you get sent to jail for POKER HOMICIDE? Thank you in advance | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, Stevolley2, 4. Oct 2003 17:13 | ||
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| Keep playing tight, but when appropiate add suited connectors and small pairs to your arsenal. These will win you big pots. Don't chase, ever. Fold when you know your beat, know the players that will bluff you and play to win the big pots. In higher limit it is very important to raise when you have a small advantage, in low-limit this is necessarily the case, raise when you have the goods. When you start to tilt take a break. The bets you save in low-limit will by your winnings, always remember there may be better opportunities to call. When you start to tilt yell at the well, go outside and scream. Remember playing tilt free is not always easy, but all we can do is get a little better at it every day. | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, mkpoker, 4. Oct 2003 23:25 | ||
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| I think you should consider playing limit HE instead of NL. By definition, bankroll swings will be extreme in NL. You'll still get some bad beats in limit, but it's a lot more predictable. Just a suggestion. | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, Malachii, 5. Oct 2003 03:42 | ||
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| I have no advice because - I AM IN THE SAME BOAT. I have given up for a while outside of a few tourney here and there. I hope you get lots of responce. | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, hokie95, 5. Oct 2003 06:25 | ||
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| I think it's one of those things that we just have to accept will happen from time to time. I had a similar experience this weekend, and the bankroll is feeling the pain. I got rivered by callers with no business calling a pre-flop raise, or any of the bets between the flop and the river, about 10 times this weekend. So far. I have noticed that the almost all big winning sessions have one thing in common: relatively crappy cards holding up to win you the 2-3 BB pots. These add up. (You know what I mean, a pre-flop raise with 2 callers, the flop is 2-3-7 rainbow. Then a J than a 6. Your A-K holds up.) Other times, you have top two pair after the flop and the idiot playing his 2-7o gets 2-2 on the turn and river. It happens. The thing I try to remember is this: except for the small psychology portion of poker (of course, that's ignoring the elephant on the coffee table), the essential element of the game is that it is a giant math problem. There is a reason that a full house beats a flush. It's not because "full house" has better nicknames. It's because they come around less often. If I can have top two pair every hand (and everyone I play against never notices that I have that every hand) I'll take it. I don't know the math on this, but I think if I have top two pair on the flop each time and never improve, I think I win lots and lots of money. Sure, there will be hands I'll lose to a flush or straight or a set, but if I charge the straight and flush draws correctly, I am gonna win in the end when I lay down the obvious straight draws and suited flops after getting played back. I know I am rambling -- but my point is that you should hang in there and play smart. I'm just starting too, and I play the limits you do. They can be beat, but you have to accept the tough beats. I just smile to myself and say, good, there's a guy whose gonna make me money over time. Maybe not today, but someday. In fact, under the fundamental theorem, I think you win every step of the way against the 2-7o caller until the river. The money may not be in your pocket yet, but those are winning plays. Hang in there. | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, Angel, 5. Oct 2003 07:12 | ||
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| "I just smile to myself and say, good, there's a guy whose gonna make me money over time. Maybe not today, but someday." Now that's a winning attitude. | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, hokie95, 5. Oct 2003 07:49 | ||
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| on 5. Oct 2003 07:12 Angel wrote: > "I just smile to myself and say, good, there's a guy whose gonna make me money over time. > Maybe not today, but someday." > > Now that's a winning attitude. I like to think so. And you know who gets credit for that attitude? My wife, who gets the concept of poker, but doesn't play. I was screaming about getting rivered (before I read Zen and the Art of Poker.....) and she looked at me and said in her matter-of-fact way, "well, who do you think you are winning money from, the guys who study the game like you have been?" Changed my approach forever. If I did those sorts of things, her quote would be sewn on a pillow. (Thanks for the validation Angel.) | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, socal_1111, 5. Oct 2003 12:07 | ||
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| Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond. Sometimes I think I'm the only guy losing bankroll and taking the worst beats from 7,2o chasers, but it does help to be reminded that in the long run (especially when I gain the experience necessary), they will be paying me back x10... hopefully?? Poker is so difficult mentally because in order to become really good you HAVE TO LOSE in the beginning. Unfortunately, I'm losing real $$$. But there is no other way to learn, right? I have to lose and make poor decisions under pressure to learn how to win, correct? Thank you again! | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, hokie95, 5. Oct 2003 17:20 | ||
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| And.......add a few more rivered back door flushes to the weekend's efforts. Smile. C'mon hokie, smile. There ya go. | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, shutupndeal, 5. Oct 2003 17:33 | ||
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| on 5. Oct 2003 12:07 socal_1111 wrote: > Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond. Sometimes I think I'm the only guy losing > bankroll and taking the worst beats from 7,2o chasers, but it does help to be reminded that in the > long run (especially when I gain the experience necessary), they will be paying me back x10... > hopefully?? > > Poker is so difficult mentally because in order to become really good you HAVE TO LOSE in the > beginning. Unfortunately, I'm losing real $$$. But there is no other way to learn, right? I have to > lose and make poor decisions under pressure to learn how to win, correct? > > Thank you again! I am sorry but nope, you DONT have to lose to learn this game, not at all and while I dont mean not ever I mean that you dont have to lose as a blanket statement wherein A. Bankroll continues to grow on a weekly basis and B. I just keep moving up in the levels one at a time and learning as I watch others and keep records and read, read and read some more! REALLY sorry that your catching the worst of it lately and I write this not to knock you at all but to encourage you, sometimes when everythings going bad we dont say exactly what we mean or we dont make out entire thought known or hell were human and we just plain screw up what we said and you can pick any of these for an answer Ok? <BG> Hopefully you understand what I mean and listen online poker is nothing but a crapshoot at those .50, 1, 2 games bro! You cant even consider these games as a legit poker game and prob do a LOT MORE HARM than good at these levels so STOP PLAYING these fake games cuz nowhere in the world will you find these levels in live play and youd do MUCH BETTER playing for fun online cuz they play the same way! lol The game CAN be beat played this way but think this post was long? It would take me 5 of these just for the basics of small stake online play! | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, 3FingerJack, 6. Oct 2003 12:38 | ||
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| I have to agree with shutupndeal. Games at those microlimits are essentially a crapshoot. Keep doing your homework, tighten up your play, stay aggressive when appropriate, and consider moving up to a higher limit. I would also considered the structured limit games for awhile until your skills improve. That way you can focus on things such as winning big bets and improving your big bets won per hour ratio and plugging leaks in your game. I had the same problems as you with structured microlimit games. I discovered moving up weeded out many of the jokers but retained a lot of fish. Life definitly got better and the thrill improved too, not to mention my bankroll. | ||
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| WARNING: MANIACS!!!, Burt Fu, 5. Oct 2003 18:33 | ||
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| You are 100% correct, and I am glad there is someone else that feels that way. I am also a fairly new player (for money...) although I've played with "play" chips for several years. I have studied and tried to improve my play. BUT THIS MAKES NO DIFFERENCE in low limit (.25 - 1) type games. I am a fairly tight player, probably from playing in tournements in which once you lose...you're gone. I am not an expert by any means...but you are correct. I can guarantee if you sit down at a low limit HE game you are going to be surrounded by at least 25% maniacs who play EVERY hand....and, what is worse BET EVERY CARD. I mean...hand, after hand...after hand....and it does make for some very, very, very, very frustating sessions when you constantly lose to people who bet all the way down and beat you with some obscure cards that you would have never even THOUGH of playing. AND THEY WILL WIN! Odds are, they are the players seated with probably the biggest bankrolls at the table! I believe in some states it is justified to kill when someone calls (or re-raises you) all the way down and beats you with some 3-6 off-suit because they made their 2 pair on the river. It happens over and over...and over. I, too, am frustrated of losing to these hands...not once in a while, but over and over. The only way I can explain these people's succes is that it is probably short-term...and we happen to be there while they are hot. Or...they've got something figured out. They play volume...every hand...and due to how many hands they play -- they just catch cards because they bet...and bet...and bet...and due to the sheer number of cards they see...it is just strange probability that the win. I have had little succesS with these type of players...as well. BET....BET...BET...BET...BET...BET....when I see that, now i just run. I leave the table immediately and I dont even try to play against that, because it seems you will Always lose....NO MATTER how well you are trying to play. THe only problem is...it is VERY difficult to try to find a table without these type of players, and when you are trying to improve your play, they make it extremely difficult and frustrating. I, as a previous post stated, have tried playing some suited connectors, or Kx,Qx,Jx combos that I wouldn't normally play, but i dont even know if that is the answer. Also, when I do get a good hand (from what I can tell, although it is hard sometimes being re-raised from a player who is holdind 2-7o) I just keep reraising the maniac. This doesnt always work, either, but it is the best I can do. There should just be "special" type of tables for these players....we have limit...no limit...perhaps "maniac" limit? | ||
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| Re: WARNING: MANIACS!!!, jackeboy, 6. Oct 2003 04:27 | ||
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| Some strange advice... I know all about bank-roll problems and I've recently found something that might help. I switched sites from William Hill to Ladbrokes (neither are in the 'top five' I hear about but they are BIG British companies) because Ladbrokes have NLHE. Of course I got skinned for my first week of play but I've made it back now. The thing that has kept me afloat is $1/$2 Five-Card Stud. The reason being that it is dirt-cheap to see your first two cards (ante - $0.10) and people don't play it that well. It costs very little to wait for good starting hands (that should be familiar to HE players) and junk everything else. You can't help but make money. Nearly every player will stay in every hand until third street or a big pair comes out; They will play drawing hands that you can see bust out on fourth or fifth; Nobody slow-plays anything so if they're betting, you know they caught a pair; If you slow play a pocket pair and raise in the larger betting rounds they will be flabbergasted at the show-down. All of this puts money in the pot - so if you junk $2 worth of hands you can win $15 to $30 when you hit. I know nothing at all about how to play stud poker well and no doubt the above seems like a joke to serious players but for players at the low end who need to build a bit of bank-roll I think it's a great game. People can still draw out on you but generally two-pairs or trips, not flushes and straights like in HE. I've got a routine now where I play a few HE tournies and if I win - great. If not I'll go to the stud table to get back my buy-in. I recommend it. 'evolution, not revolution - i want to evolve, not revolve' Jack | ||
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| Re: WARNING: MANIACS!!!, shutupndeal, 8. Oct 2003 17:08 | ||
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| People can still draw out on you but generally > two-pairs or trips, not flushes and straights like in HE. > > I've got a routine now where I play a few HE tournies and if I win - great. If not I'll > go to the stud table to get back my buy-in. I recommend it. > > > 'evolution, not revolution - i want to evolve, not revolve' > > Jack --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- """"""""""""on 6. Oct 2003 04:27 jackeboy wrote: > Some strange advice... > > I know all about bank-roll problems and I've recently found something that might help. I > switched sites from William Hill to Ladbrokes (neither are in the 'top five' I hear about > but they are BIG British companies) because Ladbrokes have NLHE. Of course I got skinned > for my first week of play but I've made it back now. > > The thing that has kept me afloat is $1/$2 Five-Card Stud. The reason being that it is > dirt-cheap to see your first two cards (ante - $0.10) and people don't play it that well. > It costs very little to wait for good starting hands (that should be familiar to HE > players) and junk everything else. You can't help but make money. Nearly every player will > stay in every hand until third street or a big pair comes out; They will play drawing > hands that you can see bust out on fourth or fifth; Nobody slow-plays anything so if > they're betting, you know they caught a pair; If you slow play a pocket pair and raise in > the larger betting rounds they will be flabbergasted at the show-down. > > All of this puts money in the pot - so if you junk $2 worth of hands you can win $15 to > $30 when you hit. > > I know nothing at all about how to play stud poker well and no doubt the above seems like > a joke to serious players but for players at the low end who need to build a bit of > bank-roll I think it's a great game. Dont worry about what anyone thinks Bro as long as your making that "nut"! {money-bankroll-$number$} I would like to ask you about Willaim Hill is it? I see you now play at Ladbrokes and I sometimes work nites but I live in the USA, and so playing at a casino frequented by English players may be more populated at the times I get to play being that is your evenings. At Willaim Hill did you feel the casino was too small or the player base was small or what? I was somewhat suprised that you dig Ladbrokes NL game, it seems like a big stretch from the one game of 1-2 at "W.H." to the other NL game at Lads. Just how many different games and players do you find at Lads when you have been playing? And one last question if I may, just how does the betting go in a NL online game, I wonder if its different from the "live" games so will you please explain it to us just a bit? Thanx so much and I love your advice to these guys for building a bankroll up and I can see no fault with it, if theres a 5 card stud game you are exactly right, its EASY to read players and if you have no problem folding bad hands and playing your good ones the players in these little limit games either dont care about the money and play anyone where in a "live" game you would get too much respect and no callers when you finally played a hand after folding all night! : ) Its a reat thing to build a bankroll that way, just hang in there and play ONLU your good starting hands, nothing but bigger pairs, and 3 card flushes and straights that start with say nothing under a 10 in your jand, this way even if you make a pir your a strong pair at the showdown! I started out playing 7 card stud and I did extremely well but as soon as I learned Hold-Em with its speed of hands played per hour I was in love. Makes it easier to fold knowing your going to get a new hand in a minute right? Many people who play too many hands are only feeding a game and even if they get a good hand here and there they can almost NEVER win and they dont see this because what it takes to play in all these hands is bankrupting them quickly! THESE are the big losers and people who give it away that you want to sit with in a game, the problem is every once in a while they get hot and they can break you for the night! It happens to all of us but you always know that for you theres tommorow, that poor dude wont be there though cuz he will be broke before he leaves! | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, Kymmer, 6. Oct 2003 06:42 | ||
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| I guess the only comfort you can take is that you are not the only one who experiences this. I've had the same run at the micro limits of not only bad beats, but bad cards - I started logging my openers across a session as well as the hands I win, and would have won, had I stayed in - boo bad stuff - the good news was that I was folding correctly. The hands I would have won, for the most part, were with marginal openers, or out of position openers, and I discovered that, at least, I had plugged some bad leaks. I know I will be able to rebuild my pot - and I am looking forward to moving up in the limits. Try this - every now and then I exercise my reading skills by watching a round or two of the higher limit games online - I try to put people on hands, and I get renewed when, at the end of a showdown, I find out I was right. Consider your bad beats a temporary loan - I will watch those maniacs pull down some pots - but they inevitably bust out and leave with nothing - you'll get it back! | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, ManicStarSeed, 6. Oct 2003 12:12 | ||
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| I have been playing for a little over a month myself, and will not play anything less than $1/2 games. While it is a low limit game, I find that you have considerably less chasing. If the stakes are any lower, I have a hard time caring about my decisions. In poker there is this concept that you should play (stakes)as high as you can without damaging your game play or psyche, in the event of being busted. This way, you are making the most money your tolerance for risk will allow. Never gamble with more than you are willing to loose, but never play stakes so low that loosing dosen't hurt. At the micro limit, people are playing there because they do not want to risk much, but because the the risk is "not as great", neither are the decisions being made. Again while 1/2 is a very low limit game, Loosing a $10-$20 pot hurts me, so I have real motivation to play better. I found that a majority of folks are at least trying at this level. I wish I have a real bank roll (500-600) so I can start playing $5/10. Things get a bit more serious at that level and in time I should be able to handle it. Lastly Never join a game with more than 50% seeing the flop. I personally target tables with 30% flops, you should too. BUT if you are willing to get into a game with 50% of eth players seeing flops, that could win you $$ if you play it right. (I can't so I dont). Mss | ||
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| Re: Tilt w/ capital T-I-L-T, socal_1111, 6. Oct 2003 18:56 | ||
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| Thank you all very much for taking the time to reply. This site has helped me learn and grow my poker skills and I look forward to continue asking you for advice!! Thanks again! | ||
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