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Server Time: 12/1/2008 12:57:37 PM PACIFIC |
 Calling when you're beat, Jacks-and-Nines, 3. Oct 2003 15:08 | ||
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| Numerous times I'll be playing low limit hold'em when my high pair is busted on the turn or river by an overpair. Often, I can see it coming, (I'll hold KT and board reads 49KA or 49K7A) and one other guy in the pot with me bets or raises. Now, with only one other player in the pot with me,should I be calling most of the time? My theory is if there's only one player in, especially if the pot is large, that I HAVE to call the river (or sometimes the turn), even if I'm 80 percent sure he's got me beat, just to discourage anyone trying to bluff me out. Even if I am sure I'm not being bluffed this time, this practice builds an image to every other potential bluffer at the table that they will not be able to buy the pot while I'm in it. Of course, I loose a few BB every hour chasing down players when they have monster hands. | ||
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| Re: Calling when you're beat, Blue Sky, 3. Oct 2003 15:32 | ||
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| You do not want to be calling when you know or atleast have a pretty good idea that your beaten. You're going to waste a ton of money by doing this. In Low Limit Hold'em there are not too many times that your going to run into a real bluff - so if you read that your beaten muck. Will you lose a couple of pots on the turn or river to a bluffer? Sure, it will happen, but so infrequently that it does not justify calling to have your opponent prove to you that they have a better hand. As far as trying to build a table image - its almost impossible at LLHE. Most players at this level cannot see anything other then their own hands, they don't recognize or remember if you put a move on them the hand before they just bet their own hands. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule but it is generally correct. Overall, don't throw bad money after good and call because you feel you have to. | ||
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| Re: Calling when you're beat, mkpoker, 3. Oct 2003 15:38 | ||
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| on 3. Oct 2003 15:08 Jacks-and-Nines wrote: > Numerous times I'll be playing low limit hold'em when my high pair is busted on > the turn or river by an overpair. > My theory is if there's only one player in, especially if the pot is > large, that I HAVE to call the river (or sometimes the turn), even if I'm 80 > percent sure he's got me beat, just to discourage anyone trying to bluff me out. > Even if I am sure I'm not being bluffed this time, this practice builds an > image to every other potential bluffer at the table that they will not be able > to buy the pot while I'm in it. Of course, I loose a few BB every hour chasing > down players when they have monster hands. There are two principles you're considering here, which I think need to be addressed separately. The first is when to make a crying call on the river. The second is when to knowingly make a marginally bad play for image-building or deception purposes. My instinct is that you're right on the first question, but I'd raise questions about the 2nd. Issue 1. When to make a crying call. You correctly note that the pot odds steer you in the direction of calling river bets. If there's $100 in the pot and it's costing you $10 to call, you're getting 10:1 on that final call. This means that to justify a fold, you shouldn't just think you're beat, you should be 90+% sure. You also correctly note that sometimes (based on your reads of opponents and the cards that come on the river)--you can be that sure you're beat...sometimes you can be nearly 100% sure. When you're that confident, I think you should fold, which brings us to point #2. Issue 2. Making a call you believe is ill-advised for image-building purposes. Your theory, as I understand it, is that you should make a river call *even when you think it's a bad call* because your play will pay dividends in future hands because of the tough image you'll cultivate. I think that's a bad idea, for one simple reason: **At LLHE, your opponents aren't likely to pick up on this sophisticated ploy** Just think, in order for your theory to work, an opponent would need to have an internal dialog that would go something like this: "This is a good bluffing situation. I'm going to raise this pot and try to take it down. No, wait. Jacks is in this hand and 45 minutes ago he called to the river with a KT hand that he probably should have folded. So I think that if I try to bluff him here, he'll call. So instead, I'll fold." Are your opponents attentive enough, shrewd enough, and skilled enough to have that kind of internal dialog? If so, then it might be a good play. But if not... Just food for thought. | ||
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| Re: Calling when you're beat, Jacks-and-Nines, 3. Oct 2003 16:10 | ||
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| Well that's some good justification not to call in a futile attempt to build image. I erroneously forgot to factor in the fact that most low limit players can't tell the difference between pocket aces and pocket lint. As for table image in B+M games, maybe I'll just tape a picture of Phil Ivey on my forehead. | ||
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| Re: Calling when you're beat, Rick B., 4. Oct 2003 16:40 | ||
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| on 3. Oct 2003 16:10 Jacks-and-Nines wrote: > Well that's some good justification not to call in a futile attempt to build image. I > erroneously forgot to factor in the fact that most low limit players can't tell the > difference between pocket aces and pocket lint. As for table image in B+M games, maybe > I'll just tape a picture of Phil Ivey on my forehead. ? Whose Phil Ivey?? | ||
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| Re: Calling when you're beat, Jacks-and-Nines, 4. Oct 2003 17:45 | ||
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| Who's Rick B.? | ||
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| Re: Calling when you're beat, Mark Gregorich, 4. Oct 2003 01:14 | ||
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| Calling to protect your table image (to keep your opponents from taking shots at you in the future) may be valid, but only in certain situations. I think the other responses in this thread do a good job of addressing the fact that most players just aren't paying that close of attention, or thinking at the level necessary to put this information into practice. It can be useful, however, if you play with many of the same people every day. You don't want to become known as someone who loves to make lots of judgement laydowns, or your opponents will be keeping you guessing all day. It always perplexes me why anyone would show a big laydown they make - it just invites their opponents to try and steal from them in the future, as they are aware that this player is capable of laying down a good hand for one bet. You can make this big laydown if you're SURE you're right, but don't show or tell anyone about it . Mark | ||
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| Re: Calling when you're beat, Eihli, 4. Oct 2003 13:49 | ||
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| I've noticed at the .5/1 tables on party there are a bunch of hotshots that try to bluff every chance they get and it's made me paranoid about folding on the river. Just a while ago I had TPTK with 3 to a flush on board, 4th of the flush hit on the river and he check-raised me, I called him and won. The only time I wouldn't call someone down on the river is if the pot is fairly small or I've seen them play and know they wouldn't bluff. Otherwise, they are guilty until proven innocent. | ||
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| Re: Calling when you're beat, PairTheBoard, 4. Oct 2003 17:09 | ||
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| I've noticed the same thing Eihli. It really helps if you can identify the culprits quickly. Although they make the most noise they are still in the minority. I think its a mistake to assume an unknown player is of this type because usually they are not. Still, on the river I usually want to see their cards. | ||
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