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Server Time: 9/5/2008 1:21:30 AM PACIFIC |
 Reason to fold pocket As?, magnus, 1. Oct 2003 14:10 | ||
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| Early in a NLHE tournament with ~700 entries I get AA in BB. (Blinds where at 10/20 and everybody had around the starting 2000, not much action yet) Have about 5 callers when it gets to me, I just check to slowplay my "monster" hand. Flop comes J52 rainbow, a ok flop for me. No pairs or real high cards, maybe somebody catched a J and wants to play with me.... SB bets out 200, he has a hand, but I not a killer. I read him for J high kicker, probably a A. I call him when I think his bet will isolate us and I don't want to give away the real strength of my hand. EP fold and MP comes over the top with an all-in...... Hmmm, I would not think he would go all-in his early with just top pair, I figured he made a set and we where both behind (even with pocket AAs!), if my read of the SB was correct I only had 1 out to get the set of As (I didn't event consider the runner runner double belly buster str8, which would only cause a split if SB had an A). I decided to fold by pocket Aces on the flop and live to fight another day...... (very hard to do....) Result: SB called with AJ and lost to a set of 5s (making a boat when the dueces paired on the board). Made me feel good to have read both players that good, though.... -Magnus | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, Jav, 1. Oct 2003 14:35 | ||
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| That was a good read, but if you had not tried to slow play your hand you would have likely won the hand instead of dropping 220 on it. I don't think you ever want to slow play against 4 or more opponents like that. What had happened earlier in the tournament? Did you have reason to believe that you would get too much respect on a pre-flop raise? Personally I would rather win the blinds with A,A than try to trap 5 other players. You could have easily have let in a random two pair, or small sets by just calling with A,A. | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, Schuster, 1. Oct 2003 14:36 | ||
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| Comments are splattered around. > Have about 5 callers when it gets to me, I just check to slowplay my "monster" > hand. Lee: Ack! You really should have raised here. One pair is not a monster when you have 5 opponents. AA is only the nuts before the flop. > SB bets out 200, he has a hand, but I not a killer. I read him for J high > kicker, probably a A. I call him when I think his bet will isolate us and I > don't want to give away the real strength of my hand. > EP fold and MP comes over > the top with an all-in...... > > Hmmm, I would not think he would go all-in his early with just top pair, I > figured he made a set and we where both behind (even with pocket AAs!) Lee: Yep, I'd figure the same. No way you can call here. > I decided to fold by pocket Aces on the flop and live to fight another > day...... (very hard to do....) Lee: This decision would have been easier if you didn't put yourself in the position to make it. A raise before the flop might have taken the pot right there for you, or at least put you in a much better position to win it after the flop. > Result: > SB called with AJ and lost to a set of 5s (making a boat when the dueces paired > on the board). Made me feel good to have read both players that good, > though.... Lee: Had you made a substantial raise before the flop, the 55 would have been very hardpressed to call you. You might have only won 120 chips, but it's better than losing. You *cannot* slowplay aces in situations like this, you're just asking to be beat. It's no limit poker, you have the option to give people bad odds, why not exercise it? AA is not as invincible as you think. Nice job on folding it though, you did limit your losses, which is excellent in tournament play. Lee | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, modestmouse, 1. Oct 2003 15:51 | ||
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| ok guys, this is obviously speculation, but....if he went all in or raised here pocket 5 man would almost certainly call. it sounds like a UB low buyin tourny, and having play a few zillion of those, he was screwed on this hand either way. but i like to lose knowing i made the correct plays and reads. he at least made some nice reads but shouldnt have allowed limpers in with AA and shoulda pushed all in (weird that has to be noted to anyone in NL, heh) but sometime players like to get tricky and slow playing is a AA tricksters dream (and nightmare) because u start out with the best hand, are favored and has suprise value like no other hand if you conceal it. obviously he would much rather be heads up with 55 man and be a huge favorite. he would lose in this spot, but 55 was lucky to flop set. on 1. Oct 2003 14:36 Schuster wrote: > Comments are splattered around. > > > Have about 5 callers when it gets to me, I just check to slowplay my "monster" > > hand. > > Lee: Ack! You really should have raised here. One pair is not a monster when you > have 5 opponents. AA is only the nuts before the flop. > > > SB bets out 200, he has a hand, but I not a killer. I read him for J high > > kicker, probably a A. I call him when I think his bet will isolate us and I > > don't want to give away the real strength of my hand. > > > EP fold and MP comes over > > the top with an all-in...... > > > > Hmmm, I would not think he would go all-in his early with just top pair, I > > figured he made a set and we where both behind (even with pocket AAs!) > > Lee: Yep, I'd figure the same. No way you can call here. > > > I decided to fold by pocket Aces on the flop and live to fight another > > day...... (very hard to do....) > > Lee: This decision would have been easier if you didn't put yourself in the > position to make it. A raise before the flop might have taken the pot right there > for you, or at least put you in a much better position to win it after the flop. > > > Result: > > SB called with AJ and lost to a set of 5s (making a boat when the dueces paired > > on the board). Made me feel good to have read both players that good, > > though.... > > Lee: Had you made a substantial raise before the flop, the 55 would have been very > hardpressed to call you. You might have only won 120 chips, but it's better than > losing. You *cannot* slowplay aces in situations like this, you're just asking to be > beat. It's no limit poker, you have the option to give people bad odds, why not > exercise it? AA is not as invincible as you think. Nice job on folding it though, > you did limit your losses, which is excellent in tournament play. > > Lee | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, steve-o, 1. Oct 2003 15:50 | ||
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| You're smarter than me. Twice in the last two days, I've had pocket AA, and lost to a flopped set, but here's the thing... Both times I'm in late position and raise it up 3X or 4X BB. I get a caller who checks to me on the flop, I bet the pot, he calls. Turn, he checks, I bet the pot, he calls. River, he checks, I bet the pot, he calls. He flopped a set and let me do all the betting for him. This has happened to me twice now. How do I combat this? | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, modestmouse, 1. Oct 2003 15:58 | ||
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| hi steve,-o thats a pretty dang stong hand to call your pot size bets that many times. i think i could be beat after he calls the first huge bet. go into the tank before betting out again (what the hell could he have, what happened on other hands with this guy, what did he do preflop?) then i would seriously consider checking, but more likely a small bet where he would NEED to get more money in there and raise you. then u would have info on the dudes hand. as it went down, u obviously never checked or bet small, so couldnt see the strenght of his hand. i think its a normal mistake you made for hands like that and easily corrected.GL on 1. Oct 2003 15:50 steve-o wrote: > You're smarter than me. Twice in the last two days, I've had pocket AA, and lost to a > flopped set, but here's the thing... > > Both times I'm in late position and raise it up 3X or 4X BB. I get a caller who > checks to me on the flop, I bet the pot, he calls. Turn, he checks, I bet the pot, he > calls. River, he checks, I bet the pot, he calls. He flopped a set and let me do all > the betting for him. > > This has happened to me twice now. How do I combat this? | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, steve-o, 1. Oct 2003 16:09 | ||
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| Thanks for the tip, Modest. When that comes up again, I'll play it more cautiously. | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, modestmouse, 1. Oct 2003 16:24 | ||
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| btw, he played that weird. anyone i know woulda let u bet the pot, then would go over the top allin. a set isnt a super hand and dont want people outdrawing you with a set on the flop. (you coulda hit yer A on the river!) on 1. Oct 2003 16:09 steve-o wrote: > Thanks for the tip, Modest. When that comes up again, I'll play it more cautiously. | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, steve-o, 3. Oct 2003 11:28 | ||
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| Can you believe it happened again last night? Pocket AA in EP. I raise it up an appropriate amount, Guy #2 comes over the top, and a third guy comes over the top of him! I call, flop is Q J 2. I check, Guy #2 goes all in, Guy #3 calls, I...fold. Guy #2 has pocket JJ for his set, and Guy #3 (this is crazy) ALSO HAD POCKET AA!!! Thank God I layed it down, but that makes 4 times in a row my pocket AA have been cracked by a flopped set. I really hate pocket aces! | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, Schuster, 3. Oct 2003 12:33 | ||
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| If you would have went all in before the flop, you and the other AA would have likely chopped (unless the JJ player was just terrible). Don't slowplay! You have the current nuts and there's a lot of money in the pot, get all your chips in. There are very very very few situations where you should hesitate to get all your money in before the flop with AA heads up. Lee | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, steve-o, 3. Oct 2003 17:11 | ||
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| I wasn't trying to slowplay, I was trying not to get bounced from the tourney very very early. The pocket JJ didn't go away after the other Pocket AA went over the top of him preflop, so I didn't think my going all in would have gotten him to fold. Maybe it would have, but at that point, JJ had most of his stack committed anyway. He got lucky hitting his set on the flop, and like I said, pocket AA has been my unluckiest hand all week, so I decided to lay it down and hang around. Of course that one hand drained over half my stack, and I never recovered. | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, betelgeese, 5. Oct 2003 01:26 | ||
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| i agree. on 3. Oct 2003 17:11 steve-o wrote: > I wasn't trying to slowplay, I was trying not to get bounced from the tourney very very early. The pocket JJ didn't > go away after the other Pocket AA went over the top of him preflop, so I didn't think my going all in would have > gotten him to fold. Maybe it would have, but at that point, JJ had most of his stack committed anyway. He got lucky > hitting his set on the flop, and like I said, pocket AA has been my unluckiest hand all week, so I decided to lay > it down and hang around. Of course that one hand drained over half my stack, and I never recovered. | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, magnus, 1. Oct 2003 16:01 | ||
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| Of cause you are both correct that I shouldn't have slowplayed my As. I kicked myself when MP showed his hand (pocket 5s I could have forced out, leaving me with the AJ and a great chance to win the pot). I'm still learning and going from LLHE where a raise wouldn't get anybody out that already put money into the pot, to NL tourneys where you can raise such an amount that people would be crazy to call it (and some people are :-), I guess I haven't made the adjustments yet.... I learned my lesson, and when I got KK a little later, I raised 200 pre-flop and took it down right there (won 80 on that hand). I just have to remember this each time I sit down and play.... -Magnus | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, Jav, 2. Oct 2003 13:58 | ||
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| I think the two biggest advantages to not slowplaying are you generally get the hand heads up, and you have a much better idea what kind of hands your opponents have. I hate playing NL poker when people limp into the pot. It's just too hard for me to put them on hands with enough reliability. | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, SendMoney, 1. Oct 2003 18:55 | ||
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| You should have raised about 20x the BB before the flop when you were in the BB and then gone all-in on the flip in your position with a J 5 2 flop. If some idiot decided to call you with 22 55 J5 J2 or 52 then you'd just have to pay them off. The only logical holding a person could call such a major raise with is JJ, but if they had that hand they would have likely shown some aggression before the flop. Or even come over-the-top of you before the flop. Slowplaying big hands in the blinds is a weak move in my opinion. In my last tourney I saw a guy slow play KK in the BB, an A came on the flop and he decided to bet out big when the flop came A 10 2, well guess what...he ended up getting busted out completely by AJo. | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, LJH, 3. Oct 2003 08:01 | ||
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| MAGNUS, WHAT A GREAT READ, BUT IF YOU HAD RAISED AND RE-RAISED TO OPEN MAYB YOU WOULD HAVE AT LEAST WON THE ANTES. LJH | ||
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| Re: Reason to fold pocket As?, spk, 3. Oct 2003 13:11 | ||
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| AA is a monster when your heads up, you need to get heads up, when you heads up with someone, you bleed them to death...... if your up against 5 other players your only a slight favorite...... | ||
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