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Server Time: 9/5/2008 1:45:20 AM PACIFIC |
 Hand Analysis please (long), shorn, 30. Sep 2003 06:15 | ||
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| I want to find out if there was any way I could have played this hand better and if anyone thinks I made a mistake on the river by my action, but also in what I thought was a decent read given the way the hand played out. Here goes: 3/6 game on Party. I am OTB with 5d5h. 3 limpers to me and I limp as well. I realize that I am getting nowhere near 7.5 to 1 here, but I anticipate the SB completing (as he has for all 3 times that I have had the button and showed down crappy hands), so at 5-1 and a relatively passive table, I think the implied odds are there. SB completes, BB raps the table and we take the flop 5-handed. Flop is 8s5s3c. Yes, I hit my set, but I don't like the board all that much with two str8 draws and a flush draw as with 4 opponents and no raise preflop, it is likely someone has a drawing piece of this flop. So, I think I need to play my set as fast as possible here. It is checked to me (ugh), I bet and sure enough I get 4 callers. Turn is the Qd, pretty much a perfect card for me as no draw is completed with it AND it may give someone who was drawing with overcards top pair which may induce them to bet out. 3 checks and the guy to my right bets out (YES!!), I raise to make draws pay, the BB flat calls, one of the other two limpers folds (one flat calls) and the guy to my right just calls the raise. This is important in my river analysis as if I was behind here or if he wasn't drawing and had made his hand, I think he would have 3-bet. River is the Ac, so the final board reads 8s5s3cQdAc. So, no flush but the str8 is completed. BB checks, limper checks and the guy to my right bets out. Now I think...I doubt that the BB or the first limper would try to CR the river with the str8 (as this game wasn't that fancy), so I think they both missed. The guy to my right played passively pre-flop and on the flop, and then got interested on the turn. He only called my raise on the turn but then bets out the river. So, I don't think he would have played that way with 42, so I eliminate that. Would he have played 88 that way? I doubt it unless he was stupid as he would have been as worried about the flush draw and str8 draw as I was. So, I eliminate that. He got interested when the Queen hit, but only called my raise making me think he had a Queen with a weaker kicker, but then he bet the Ace. So, I decide that it is likely he flat called with AQs, and has now bet out what he thinks is the best hand of two pair. I also decide that just flat calling won't win me anything from the other two as they will likely fold their missed draws, so I decide to raise the river. Both limpers fold and he sits and thinks for a good 15 seconds. He then 3-bets. The pot is large enough and I decide that despite the fact that it looks like I am beaten, I will call. Sure enough, he flips over AA (no spades) and takes the pot. Frankly, this holding astonishes me (even at this limit) as IMO, he played it about as poorly as he could have (except for the three bet on the river obviously) and it actually cost him a lot of $$ from me, as I would have happily capped the flop and potentially the turn with him. My question is - Could I have read him for this at all?? I don't even think I could have read him for QQ much less AA. Also, would anyone else have played the river (or the rest of the hand for that matter) differently? Thanks in advance. Steve | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), Snorbolus, 30. Sep 2003 06:28 | ||
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| I don't think that you should have discounted the possibility of 88 just because of passiveness on the flop. Lots of players at low limits will wait for the turn to raise with a set, no matter how scary the board. The guy who you were against waited until the turn to raise his overpair. My guess is that he believed he was slow playing a monster and thought that he was ahead all the way. Nevertheless, I think that you were right to raise the river. I would have done so in that spot too. Snorbolus on 30. Sep 2003 06:15 shorn wrote: > I want to find out if there was any way I could have played this hand better and > if anyone thinks I made a mistake on the river by my action, but also in what I > thought was a decent read given the way the hand played out. Here goes: > > 3/6 game on Party. I am OTB with 5d5h. 3 limpers to me and I limp as well. I > realize that I am getting nowhere near 7.5 to 1 here, but I anticipate the SB > completing (as he has for all 3 times that I have had the button and showed down > crappy hands), so at 5-1 and a relatively passive table, I think the implied > odds are there. SB completes, BB raps the table and we take the flop > 5-handed. > > Flop is 8s5s3c. Yes, I hit my set, but I don't like the board all that much > with two str8 draws and a flush draw as with 4 opponents and no raise preflop, > it is likely someone has a drawing piece of this flop. So, I think I need to > play my set as fast as possible here. It is checked to me (ugh), I bet and sure > enough I get 4 callers. Turn is the Qd, pretty much a perfect card for me as no > draw is completed with it AND it may give someone who was drawing with overcards > top pair which may induce them to bet out. 3 checks and the guy to my right > bets out (YES!!), I raise to make draws pay, the BB flat calls, one of the other > two limpers folds (one flat calls) and the guy to my right just calls the raise. > This is important in my river analysis as if I was behind here or if he wasn't > drawing and had made his hand, I think he would have 3-bet. > > River is the Ac, so the final board reads 8s5s3cQdAc. So, no flush but the > str8 is completed. BB checks, limper checks and the guy to my right bets out. > Now I think...I doubt that the BB or the first limper would try to CR the river > with the str8 (as this game wasn't that fancy), so I think they both missed. > The guy to my right played passively pre-flop and on the flop, and then got > interested on the turn. He only called my raise on the turn but then bets out > the river. So, I don't think he would have played that way with 42, so I > eliminate that. Would he have played 88 that way? I doubt it unless he was > stupid as he would have been as worried about the flush draw and str8 draw as I > was. So, I eliminate that. He got interested when the Queen hit, but only > called my raise making me think he had a Queen with a weaker kicker, but then he > bet the Ace. So, I decide that it is likely he flat called with AQs, and has > now bet out what he thinks is the best hand of two pair. I also decide that > just flat calling won't win me anything from the other two as they will likely > fold their missed draws, so I decide to raise the river. > > Both limpers fold and he sits and thinks for a good 15 seconds. He then > 3-bets. The pot is large enough and I decide that despite the fact that it > looks like I am beaten, I will call. Sure enough, he flips over AA (no spades) > and takes the pot. Frankly, this holding astonishes me (even at this limit) as > IMO, he played it about as poorly as he could have (except for the three bet on > the river obviously) and it actually cost him a lot of $$ from me, as I would > have happily capped the flop and potentially the turn with him. > > My question is - Could I have read him for this at all?? I don't even think I > could have read him for QQ much less AA. Also, would anyone else have played > the river (or the rest of the hand for that matter) differently? > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve > | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), shorn, 30. Sep 2003 06:58 | ||
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| Snorbolus- Thanks. Actually though, he didn't raise the turn, he bet it out when the Queen hit. I raised and then he just flat called, again which confused me. With 88, I would have 3-bet the turn if I were him, but he just called the raise. Anyway, I appreciate the input. Steve | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), Roy Cooke, 30. Sep 2003 06:56 | ||
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| Hi Steve I like your thought process throughout the hand. I would have played your hand the same way! Sometimes poker just works out that way....as long as you made reasonable decisions, don't sweat it......Just put it behind you and play the next hand! Roy Cooke on 30. Sep 2003 06:15 shorn wrote: > I want to find out if there was any way I could have played this hand better and > if anyone thinks I made a mistake on the river by my action, but also in what I > thought was a decent read given the way the hand played out. Here goes: > > 3/6 game on Party. I am OTB with 5d5h. 3 limpers to me and I limp as well. I > realize that I am getting nowhere near 7.5 to 1 here, but I anticipate the SB > completing (as he has for all 3 times that I have had the button and showed down > crappy hands), so at 5-1 and a relatively passive table, I think the implied > odds are there. SB completes, BB raps the table and we take the flop > 5-handed. > > Flop is 8s5s3c. Yes, I hit my set, but I don't like the board all that much > with two str8 draws and a flush draw as with 4 opponents and no raise preflop, > it is likely someone has a drawing piece of this flop. So, I think I need to > play my set as fast as possible here. It is checked to me (ugh), I bet and sure > enough I get 4 callers. Turn is the Qd, pretty much a perfect card for me as no > draw is completed with it AND it may give someone who was drawing with overcards > top pair which may induce them to bet out. 3 checks and the guy to my right > bets out (YES!!), I raise to make draws pay, the BB flat calls, one of the other > two limpers folds (one flat calls) and the guy to my right just calls the raise. > This is important in my river analysis as if I was behind here or if he wasn't > drawing and had made his hand, I think he would have 3-bet. > > River is the Ac, so the final board reads 8s5s3cQdAc. So, no flush but the > str8 is completed. BB checks, limper checks and the guy to my right bets out. > Now I think...I doubt that the BB or the first limper would try to CR the river > with the str8 (as this game wasn't that fancy), so I think they both missed. > The guy to my right played passively pre-flop and on the flop, and then got > interested on the turn. He only called my raise on the turn but then bets out > the river. So, I don't think he would have played that way with 42, so I > eliminate that. Would he have played 88 that way? I doubt it unless he was > stupid as he would have been as worried about the flush draw and str8 draw as I > was. So, I eliminate that. He got interested when the Queen hit, but only > called my raise making me think he had a Queen with a weaker kicker, but then he > bet the Ace. So, I decide that it is likely he flat called with AQs, and has > now bet out what he thinks is the best hand of two pair. I also decide that > just flat calling won't win me anything from the other two as they will likely > fold their missed draws, so I decide to raise the river. > > Both limpers fold and he sits and thinks for a good 15 seconds. He then > 3-bets. The pot is large enough and I decide that despite the fact that it > looks like I am beaten, I will call. Sure enough, he flips over AA (no spades) > and takes the pot. Frankly, this holding astonishes me (even at this limit) as > IMO, he played it about as poorly as he could have (except for the three bet on > the river obviously) and it actually cost him a lot of $$ from me, as I would > have happily capped the flop and potentially the turn with him. > > My question is - Could I have read him for this at all?? I don't even think I > could have read him for QQ much less AA. Also, would anyone else have played > the river (or the rest of the hand for that matter) differently? > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve > | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), shorn, 30. Sep 2003 07:07 | ||
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| Roy- Thanks. It is good to know that someone as skilled as yourself agrees with how I played this out. I just am still trying to figure out why someone would play AA so passively and if I could have saved a bet on the river there. But, you are right that sometimes you just need to employ short term amnesia and move on. Steve | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), Mark, 30. Sep 2003 08:29 | ||
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| Hi shorn Depending heavily on the player, i may have just flat called the river. I wouldn't put the player on AQ because that I would definately expect a pre-flop raise with that holding. From the betting (or lack of) i expected your opponent to be on either 88 or Q8. But when he leads at river after only calling the turn, things start to smell fishy. From the way the hand played out, you wouldn't expect the River Ace to help his hand at all, so either he misplayed his hand on an earlier round or is bluffing. This is why i may not raise the river. If he's bluffing he obviously can't call you, so a raise has no value. What hands would he call with that would be losing to you? AQ - if you think he wouldn't raise pre-flop Q8 - but would he lead at the river with this The other reason for flat calling is the other caller. The ace may have helped him so you may get an overcall from him. This is definately a more passive way to play. Mark | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), noiseboy, 30. Sep 2003 08:39 | ||
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| Some bad players believe that they should always trap with their AA's, just be glad you lost less than you had to due to his stupid play. It's hard to put players like that on a hand, but you might notice that they are tight weak, so they probably slow play all their big hands, and don't get as much value as they should. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), Boftx, 30. Sep 2003 10:44 | ||
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| on 30. Sep 2003 06:15 shorn wrote: [ Hand description deleted, opponent showed AA to win ] > Frankly, this holding astonishes me (even at this limit) as > IMO, he played it about as poorly as he could have (except for the three bet on > the river obviously) and it actually cost him a lot of $$ from me, as I would > have happily capped the flop and potentially the turn with him. > > My question is - Could I have read him for this at all?? I don't even think I > could have read him for QQ much less AA. Also, would anyone else have played > the river (or the rest of the hand for that matter) differently? > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve > Steve, I think that had he bet and re-raised the flop you would have lost the limpers (assuming you would have raised the flop) and had he then gone on to bet/re-raise or especially if he had CR'ed the turn you would have put him on a big PP and you would have folded or just called the river when the A showed. Under those conditions, he actually makes more money by slow-playing like he did if I tracked it out right. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), shorn, 30. Sep 2003 11:03 | ||
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| That may be true, but in my book, the risk of getting outdrawn on the hand with that flop is too high to worry about hoping that you can get 1 or two more bets out of the limpers. If another spade comes, he can't win the hand. That flop stunk for AA and IMO, he was wrong to slowplay the hand, and he caught a miracle on the river to beat me. | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), Schuster, 30. Sep 2003 12:10 | ||
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| I agree shorn. Letting others draw for free is a bad idea. One pair with that board is very fragile. I like your thought process throughout the hand, just a bad river. I thought he might have As 3s at the river, or some other strange hand to make aces up, even AQ. I'd be pretty surprised when he flipped over the AA too. What can you do, it's poker. Good luck! Lee | ||
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| Re: Hand Analysis please (long), Boftx, 30. Sep 2003 14:02 | ||
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| I agree with you that he took a horrible chance after the flop. Not raising pre-flop however could be forgiven, thats the standard advice on lowlimitholdem.com, raise pre-flop with any big pair EXCEPT AA. I have seen a lot of this lately. | ||
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