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Server Time: 11/20/2009 10:49:21 PM PACIFIC |
 Correct way to play it ?, Michael C, 29. Sep 2003 13:02 | ||
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| Hi - I played 3 hours of 6-12 and of the hands that I played some were premium. The hands were AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 99, 55, AKo, AJo, KQh, KQc, K8c, QTo, J9d, A9o, A5s. I missed most flops completely and then *correctly* folded unless I had an overpair (KK). I played the following hands to the River: AA(L) KK(W), QQ(L), JJ(L), KQc(W), K8c(L), AJo(W)and J9d(W). Exception - After an hour of unplayable hands I got JJ in the BB and played it very badly. I raised and was called by 3 players. The flop was Q5Ko which was terrible for me. What I should have done was bet out once on the Flop and then if no Jack on the Turn check and fold to any bets. Suffice it to say that I overplayed my hand and lost more than I should have. Q7s MP took the pot. Any comments on the correct way to play pp with overcards? Thanks | ||
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| Re: Correct way to play it ?, jaustin, 29. Sep 2003 13:40 | ||
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| It's not an easy play. If I've raised with my pp, I'll almost always bet out to take one stab at the pot, if I get played back at I'll see the turn and then fold unless I trip-up or pick up a draw (or if I have a good read on them and put them on a draw and playing for a free card). When people just call it gets tricky. If there are draws on the board and you think they might be on them, then betting the turn as well can be the correct play. Generally, if you have more than two callers, then someone has the overcard and check-fold is the correct play. Also, alot depends on the players you're up against. If they are solid players, a call if a good sign they're on a draw. In the situation you described, most of the hands that a solid player might have that have you beat would usually raise AK, KQ, KJ - the exceptions being AQ and maybe QJs or QTs (although with these two I would expect either a fold or a raise to see where they are). If you're up against loose players, then it's q different story as they can easily have Qx or Kx and just call you all the way with top (or second) pair, no kicker. | ||
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| Re: Correct way to play it ?, Michael C, 29. Sep 2003 14:24 | ||
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| Thanks for you advice - I though him more a solid player but he just stayed with me on second pair. When I bet the blank on the Turn the player between he and I folded and then it was heads up. I bet the River and he called with Q7 clubs. The flop was a rainbow. Next time I will check the Turn and fold if bet into, most likely. Seems a safer way to go. | ||
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| Re: Correct way to play it ?, Michael C, 30. Sep 2003 18:33 | ||
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| Mason Malmuth wrote the following quote - do you think that it applies to the BB? I usually fold to a raise in the BB unless I have very good cards. For 2 bets cold I will fold hands that I limped in with. "When playing structured limit hold’em, as opposed to spread-limit or pot-limit, if you limp in before the flop and are raised, there are only a very few instances when you should fold for one bet. However, even though there are spots where folding for the one additional bet is probably correct, you should never do it. The reason for this is that you don’t want your opponents taking shots at you and raising you with hands that don’t necessarily warrant it. Not only will they become harder to read, but they will actually be playing better against you, since you’ll be less sure of how to proceed as the hand develops. So, that’s why you’ll never see a good player fold in this spot. By the way, most bad players never fold here, either, but a few weak-tight types will make these laydowns." cardplayer.com | ||
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| Re: Correct way to play it ?, shorn, 1. Oct 2003 05:05 | ||
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| This does not apply to BB play. It only applies to situations where your cards were good enough to call originally. Since your BB is a forced bet, that may not be the case. Now, if you have a decent BB holding and there are a lot of limpers before the raise, then maybe you call due to your higher implied odds. But, as a general rule, you should not employ the strategy in his quote to BB play. | ||
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| Re: Correct way to play it ?, Michael C, 1. Oct 2003 07:41 | ||
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| Thanks. I guess that this points out why a good starting hand selection is so important. If you limp with pretty good cards for your position then calling a raise should not alarm you. | ||
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| Re: Correct way to play it - again?, Michael C, 6. Oct 2003 10:34 | ||
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| Hi - I played this weekend and it was very good for me. I kept reminding myself to watch TILT. I made a few bad calls so today I reread Lee Jones book on straight draws. I was happy with this play even though I missed my draw. HE36 - I was in s10 with T9 hearts. Flop Jh 8s xo. s7 (EP) raised, s8 and s9 called and s7 said "T9 no good" to me. So I raised him "3 Jacks okay to raise?" and as usual all called and it was capped back to me. I called. I missed on the Turn and called 6 chips and missed the River and folded. The pot was huge and my straight would have been the nuts. :-( Seat 7 complained that 1) no one folded to his raise 2) I raised with T9 which was wrong and 3) he did not win. Later, I moved to seat 8 for a better view and he left a short time later. I have played with him a few times and he does not like the way I play but I usually win against him. He is a nice guy but wants people to respect his raises and not play trash. I think that he needs to move up to middle limits if that is what he wants. ( I don't play trash except blinds and I sometimes get very lucky. 2 hands back to back I got A5o (bb) turn was a St8 and A5s (sb) and flopped a st8. ! Later bb 75o and flopped a st8.) Lee Jones page 94/95 - Winning Low Limit HOLD'EM. Almost the exact example. You hold T9c and the flop is 7c8h2d. "Player bets and 2 people call and you (correctly) raise with the opened ended straight draw. If he makes it 3 bets ... then cap it." I guess the player in seat 7 did not read Lee's book. :-) M. | ||
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| Re: Correct way to play it ?, kennycatkiller, 12. Oct 2003 21:27 | ||
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| A pocket pair of fives, for example, can sometimes be bet with, say a six and and eight overcard on the flop, but if the two overcards are faces or aces, it is very dangerous, because most people naturally play the higher cards. In the example you cited, I would not raise from the big blind with pocket jacks, because limpers usually call once they have made the initial call. When the flop came with a King and a Queen, I would have checked and, depending on my assessment of the opposition, probably folded to a bet. Note that if you do call and make a set on the turn, someone could have made a straight with it. Kennycatkiller | ||
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| Re: Correct way to play it ?, Michael C, 13. Oct 2003 18:31 | ||
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| Thanks - Kenny. Pocket JJ have been very unlucky for me - I played in a live limit tourney and called a raise with pocket JJ in the BB. Once again lost to KK. The flop was AAQ and it turned out no one had an A or a Q. I led out with a bet and got raised so I folded. She showed KK. Same game second hand I played round 1. I had A9s and the flop was A97o so I though I was good to go. Same lady had pocket AA. All the As were in play and my A9 hit the flop. Rebuy ! New deck. A few hands late she got AA again and her FH (AAA55) beat another FH (555xx). Go figure. I got her one time only. She had KK and I had A3s and the board had an A but I could not raise it. Small pot. Same game, round 2, some guy got a 2 FH and 1 Nut flush almost back to back. Life goes on. I was out on Round 4 and out $45. | ||
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