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Server Time: 12/2/2008 10:07:05 AM PACIFIC |
 To raise the river? Opinions please, mkpoker, 28. Sep 2003 14:07 | ||
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| Sat down at a 10-20 table today, a move up in limits for me. I left after this hand, realizing that I just wasn't comfortable with the limit. Had I been at 3-6 or 4-8, I probably would have have raised at the end here. Would that have been the right play? 2 off the button, I'm dealt TT. UTG raises. 2 callers to me. I reraise, hoping to seize last position by forcing cutoff and button to cold call three bets. This works as they fold. Pre-flop raiser calls as do two others. Flop comes 9c 7h 3h. Not crazy about the heart draw, but a pretty good flop for me. Pre-flop raiser checks. EP bets, MP folds, I raise. Pre-flop raiser folds and EP calls--we're heads up now. EP didn't raise pre-flop, so I doubt he's got a higher overpair. Maybe a heart draw or a hand like A9s, I figure. Turn comes 2c. EP bets. I raise. He re-raises, which unnerves me. How could the 2c have helped him that much, I wonder? Very doubtful he's played 22 to this point. Maybe he flopped a set and waited for the turn to raise? I call. River is 9s [board is 9c7h3h2c9s]. Obviously, if he was on a draw, it's busted now. He bets out. I still have an overpair, but call only, fearing that a hand like A9s just made trips. He turns over A7c...My TT is good. I'm happy to pile up the chips, but I can't help but wonder if I should have raised his river bet. I also can't help but wonder if the higher limit was a factor in my decision to call only. Once I start wondering about that...I decide to quit. Anxious to hear others' thoughts. Should I have called or raised the river? (And, of course, any other thoughts you have about this hand are welcome as always. I didn't even consider it at the time, but perhaps I should have capped the turn). | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, Blade, 28. Sep 2003 14:34 | ||
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| I would not have raised the river as I thought you were beat until the very end of you hand description. He must have put you on AK and his raise was to win it there. but he could have easily had A9 having top pair on the board when he raised, and then trips on the river. | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, ReMMy, 28. Sep 2003 14:43 | ||
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| I think you played it perfectly. Try to gain bets when there's at least 3 people in the pot(on the flop or turn). If he had a 9 which is completely possible, you risk losing 2 additional bets(your raise, plus his reraise). If he was on a heart draw, and just making an attempt to steal the pot, he's gonna fold anyways, so you'll gain nothing anyways. If you don't have the nuts(or near nuts), there's no need to raise the river. Depending on your read, you might even want to check if its checked to you, the pot has already been built up w/ other players money, and if you have to call a check raise your odds become much worse. Bottom line, save your river raises for when you hit your draw hands... | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, 4 POKER, 28. Sep 2003 15:59 | ||
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| Hey mk, Pocket tens go either way preflop.....call the raise, or re-raise. When the limits get higher, I prefer to re-raise, for the same reasons that you stated. I agree with your raise on the flop. (try to narrow the field a bit if you can, and to also prevent anyone from hitting an overpair on the turn for too cheap a price). When you get bet into on the turn from the EP player, you raise, and then he re-raises you....I would put him on several hands here. First....he definitely doesn't have pocket deuces. He wouldn't have lead at the flop of 9-7-3, with that hand, (I don't think). But he could have flopped a set of sevens, and the remote possibility of a set of threes, or, a set of nines. I know that's a bit of a stretch to put him on all of those (possible) holdings....but it is possible. It depends on what his standards are and if he would call multiple raises preflop with 3-3, OR would he be the type of player to limp in with 9-9? (pocket sevens can go either way). But knowing how tight he is preflop...or how loose he may be, and what his tendencies are, would be a good thing to know here. But since we don't know, I'm going to give him a little credit for having a piece of the flop.....a good piece of the flop...OR, a big drawing hand like 10-8 of hearts, if he was a loose, "calling all raises" type of guy!.....or a hand like A-Q suited, or perhaps even pocket Jacks. (Were you playing with long enough to know what type of a player he was?) When he leads at the turn again, unless he has a set, you more than likely have the best hand. I think he may have gone for the check-raise on the turn if he flopped a set because he had to think that you were going to bet again anyway, being that you were aggresive preflop, and on the flop. So I think I'm ruling out that possibility now. He may have two pair but with that board,(and the aggresion that was taken place preflop).. it just seems so unlikely. He could hold top pair with an Ace perhaps, (that's if he's loose!). Anyway, without knowing his standards and such....when he re-reaises you on the turn and then comes out swingin' on the river.... I think I would have just called as well. The way the hand went down....with him being so aggresive.....I don't think a raise on the river would add up to a value raise imo. He almost can't call you unless he has you beat, and then he's gonna raise you most likely. The river also paired the top pair that was on the flop, so there is a very good chance that he did make trips. (Anyway....*keep a note on that player....it may help you with future run-ins with him).* I think you played the hand well. would you have raised the river if it was $3-6? Maybe the limits made you feel uncomfortable mk, but I think you handled it well here. I also believe that because you started doubting yourself, that it was a good idea that you chose to leave the game. (IMO, it takes a lot of discipline to do that....especially after you win a big pot and think that you may have played it less than optimally). 4P- | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, mkpoker, 28. Sep 2003 17:00 | ||
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| Thanks for the thoughtful replies...as always. In response to 4P's questions, the truth is I really didn't have much of a read on any of the players. Not surprisingly, you rarely see the 10-20 players at the 3-6 or 4-8 tables, so I hadn't played with any of them before. And I left the table before getting a decent read on anyone. Also, at lower limits, yes, I would have raised the river. The reason is that IMO, LL players are far more likely to call river bets/raises if they have *anything*. At the mid-limit, I think ReMMy and 4P are right that a raise wouldn't have been called unless EP could have beaten my hand (with any 2pair or more). But at a LL table, I'd have bet that any middle or top pair would call. | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, Andrew Wells, 28. Sep 2003 17:44 | ||
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| I wouldn't consider raising the river at 3-6 either. You got played back for three bets on the turn after all. You're much more likely to have someone show you trip nines in a low limit game. Otherwise you are being pushed by the nut flush draw, or are simply beaten. Someone with a pair of eights or less can hardly be expected to three bet you, and most likely would simply check/call on the river hoping you missed your draw. | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, Andrew Wells, 28. Sep 2003 17:31 | ||
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| The board has a possible flush draw and the pot is already large. If I'm his opponent and I'm holding a set on the turn, I'm highly unlikely to play for a checkraise here. I would be looking for a strong overpair to raise again, and I don't want him to possibly take a free card with ace-big suited. I don't think a set should be discounted on this hand. I do agree with everyone else here, just call on the end. | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, 4 POKER, 28. Sep 2003 17:53 | ||
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| on 28. Sep 2003 17:31 Andrew Wells wrote: > The board has a possible flush draw and the pot is already large. If I'm his opponent and > I'm holding a set on the turn, I'm highly unlikely to play for a checkraise here. I would > be looking for a strong overpair to raise again, and I don't want him to possibly take a > free card with ace-big suited. I don't think a set should be discounted on this hand. I do > agree with everyone else here, just call on the end. Hey Andrew, I agree with not letting for a free card to take place, and being that the pot was big already that a lead out bet on the turn would be correct, however, if he did flop a set, when he lead at the flop and got raised.....why wouldn't he re-raise it back then? If I had flopped a set in that situation, and I chose to lead at it (due to pot size and the draws that were out there), if I got raised on the flop, I would re-raise it back. Otherwise, why lead at it at all if you weren't planning on reraising it right there.....or at least go for a check-raise on the turn. Why miss any bets at all if you're chosing to play it fast? That's why I backed off a bit from giving him a set, because if you're going to fastplay it, then you fastplay it all the way. He's betting patterns didn't quite match up imo. 4P- | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, Pedro, 28. Sep 2003 18:41 | ||
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| I have to agree with not raising the river. Let's face it the only hands that are going to call or reraise you are hands that have you beat. Just calling is the right call. Some players are taught to bet the 2nd pair high kicker, but they also should be able to read strong hands. Obviously you were facing an amateur who has read books, but doesn't have the skill to read when a player is playing a pocket pair. The most important thing in poker is being able to read your opponet. When the player you were playing reraise you on the turn that should of taken him off the flush draw so if the flush hit I wouldn't worry to much. The 9 would of scared me on the river so I would just call here. Just cause he didn't have the 9 doesn't mean you didn't make the right play. The exact hand I would of put him on is a9. The reason he waited to the turn to raise is cause maybe he knew you were a new player and felt he could push you around. The turn is when the bets increase to 40 dollars. He was trying to represent a high pocket pair, or maybe trips. Also if he did have trips it would be right to wait until turn to raise. Especially if he believes the player is on a flush draw. Then he can hopefully raise the flush out without seeing the river. However, he should check on the turn to the bettor and then raise. So him coming out betting on the turn was him trying to push you out not keep you in. In other words he wasn't strong. Basically thats how fish play. They never mix up there game always bet the weak hands check the strong ones. I think you played your hand very well. Good luck in the rest of your game. Pedro | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, Andrew Wells, 28. Sep 2003 19:02 | ||
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| It may depend on how the player with a set thinks his opponent will handle the big pair. Many tight players will back off with something like QQ when they get reraised on the flop, and simply call it down the whole way. By just calling, and leading on the turn I am more likely to get raised again. Against a known aggressive player I'm certainly going to play the set full speed though. I'm not going to start to take a player off the flopped set possibilities because he didn't three bet it. This is a useful trap that can be worth an extra 1-1/2 BBs over the straightforward approach against the right type of player who made the reraise preflop, particularly someone who's a decent hand reader. | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, 4 POKER, 28. Sep 2003 19:42 | ||
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| Very good point Andrew. I suppose there 'are' very tight/passive players who would back off from raising again on the turn if they were re-raised on the flop with a hand like (Q-Q for example). If I had Q-Q, and that was my flop, unless I really put my opponent on a set, I would raise him again anyway on the turn, even if he 3 bet the flop; but, if he knew me well enough and there was mutual respect, (and vice versa) and 'still' made that play, then I might back off a bit on the turn. (but of course, this is more likely to occur in live games where players may know me alot better, too). So I guess it also depends on how well both players know each others tendencies too. | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, Andrew Wells, 28. Sep 2003 20:06 | ||
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| In particular, I wouldn't three bet the flop with top set against someone moving up. I would probably have seen such an opponent playing regularly in the 4-8 game, and figured he believed he was strong enough to take a shot at 10-20. This is exactly the sort of player who would be aggressive in his regular game, but might back off if he read me for a possible set of nines on the flop. I would also expect him to want to play a big pair strong on the turn. Your other example of two players with mutual respect is just as valid, and in that case one has to mix it up somewhat or risk losing an edge. | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, Formless, 29. Sep 2003 04:14 | ||
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| Maybe I am missing something but raising on the river here sounds like a really, really bad play. The 9 on the river is a very bad card for you. The guy 3 bet you on the turn and bets out the river; he has a hand, and in *most* cases I think he has a hand that beats you. Even if you estimated that there was a 55% chance you were good on the river I think you should just call. It's often a case of win one bet or lose two bets. | ||
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| Re: To raise the river? Opinions please, Roy Cooke, 29. Sep 2003 16:00 | ||
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| Hi MK If you raise what worse hand is he going to call you with? Also he will reraise if he has you beat or maybe outplay you and reraise as a bluff (doubtful but I have seen it happen). Raising is a good play only if your opponent will call your raise with a worse hand...When you raise you take the risk of being reraised as a play or with a better hand.....So a 50-50 chance of your opponent calling the raise with a worse hand is NOT good enough odds. You need to extend those odds based on the propensity of your opponent to reraise as a bluff or make a reraise with a hand you would have to pay off. Roy Cooke on 28. Sep 2003 14:07 mkpoker wrote: > Sat down at a 10-20 table today, a move up in limits for me. I left after this > hand, realizing that I just wasn't comfortable with the limit. Had I been at > 3-6 or 4-8, I probably would have have raised at the end here. Would that have > been the right play? > > 2 off the button, I'm dealt TT. UTG raises. 2 callers to me. I reraise, > hoping to seize last position by forcing cutoff and button to cold call three > bets. This works as they fold. Pre-flop raiser calls as do two others. > > Flop comes 9c 7h 3h. Not crazy about the heart draw, but a pretty good flop > for me. Pre-flop raiser checks. EP bets, MP folds, I raise. Pre-flop raiser > folds and EP calls--we're heads up now. EP didn't raise pre-flop, so I doubt > he's got a higher overpair. Maybe a heart draw or a hand like A9s, I figure. > > > Turn comes 2c. EP bets. I raise. He re-raises, which unnerves me. How could > the 2c have helped him that much, I wonder? Very doubtful he's played 22 to > this point. Maybe he flopped a set and waited for the turn to raise? I call. > > River is 9s [board is 9c7h3h2c9s]. Obviously, if he was on a draw, it's busted > now. He bets out. I still have an overpair, but call only, fearing that a hand > like A9s just made trips. > > He turns over A7c...My TT is good. I'm happy to pile up the chips, but I can't > help but wonder if I should have raised his river bet. I also can't help but > wonder if the higher limit was a factor in my decision to call only. Once I > start wondering about that...I decide to quit. > > Anxious to hear others' thoughts. Should I have called or raised the river? > (And, of course, any other thoughts you have about this hand are welcome as > always. I didn't even consider it at the time, but perhaps I should have capped > the turn). | ||
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