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Server Time: 12/2/2008 8:09:47 AM PACIFIC |
 Dealer Tipping, Urban Chaos, 27. Sep 2003 04:45 | ||
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| How do you people tip dealers for a hand that you win? --One dollar? --1 chip from the pot (denomination varies on the limit of the game)? --A small % of the pot? --A token amount that varies dedpending on the sidze of the pot, but not a mathematical absolute? --Not at all? Is dealer tipping, while expected and encouraged, also understood as a cost of playing the game and built into your expectations of the cost and what you will take away from the table? I play $6-12 (which uses $2 chips) and generally tip between $1-$4 per winning pot, deepending on how I feel and the general size of the pot. Responses? | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Angel, 27. Sep 2003 05:03 | ||
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| I would not presume to tell someone how much to tip as that is a personal decision but this is what I do: I tip $1 on nearly every pot - a few exceptions: nothing when I steal the blinds $2 on a monster pot to a good dealer nothing to a very poor dealer (there are 3 who are on my nothing for life "please god let me win the jackpot when they are dealing" list) I am a former dealer and was an exceptional one. I dealt fast and made few errors. While I certainly did not mind someone over-toking, fact is that I could make a fair living by just getting out the hands and getting $1/hand. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Urban Chaos, 27. Sep 2003 05:39 | ||
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| By "poor dealer" I assume you mean in terms of fundementals and game facilitation...(many players, good and bad, consider that dealers actually are at fault for not putting winning cards out for them). So it doesn't matter if you're playing $1-2, $6-12 or $30-60, you tip $1 per hand? (Not asking with an incredulous tone, but actually confirming what you're saying.) And I understand yours is just an example, and that you wouldn't presume to dictate what SHOULD be done. I appreciate the response and would like to hear frorm others as well. -Urban "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. " | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Angel, 27. Sep 2003 05:51 | ||
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| Urban, Yes, $1 per hand regardless of game. Incidentally, when I dealt the $4000/$8000 game for Doyle Brunson, Bobby Baldwin etc. it worked out to about $1/hand at that level too but that's the highest limit I'm aware of - the tokes might really take off after that ;) j/k And yes - poor dealer meant one who skills are poor - in particular, poor as a result of choice. For instance, a dealer that can't watch the game because there is a football game on the big screen and they have money on the game - they simply choose not to pay attention - their job has become a low priority to them. I suspect in these posts I may be coming across rather scrooge like - and I think that would be an error in perception. For instance, X-mas costs me $400 - because every dealer gets a $25 chip when they enter the box. If someone is drunk or belligerant and a good dealer is getting stiffed repeatedly as a result - They get $1 per occurance from me to a maximum of $3/down. It doesn't happen often - maybe $5/wk average - but it's a way of letting a good dealer know that they are appreciated. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Urban Chaos, 27. Sep 2003 05:56 | ||
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| No, Angel, not scrooge-like at all. Again, I don't think $1 at high limit games is too low...that's kind of why I'm asking what is customary, because I don't play at those limits. Back when I played $1/2, it was .50 to $1 tip...at $6/12, it's $1-2 tip. But I wondered how high it escalated at higher limits, because then those dealers are getting PAID! (heh) And I didn't expect that was the case, or that players would give up larger chips every hand. Thanks again for the time you took to answer! -Urban "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. " | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Angel, 27. Sep 2003 05:35 | ||
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| I had a few more thoughts on the subject - particularly after talking to my wife about this post - she is a dealer. In a $6/$12 game, let's say 9 people bought in for $100 putting $900 on the table. Let's assume the rake is $4/hand, the tip is $2/hand and 30 hands per hour are dealt. The entire $900 starting capital is off the table in 5 hours flat - that's pretty harsh. Secondly, there aren't alot of people who can make 1BB/hour at $6/12. To do so one has to be incredibly dedicated as well as studious, disciplined and possess a myriad of other skills. It's not easy to do as many a broke wannabe would tell you. 1 BB/hour at $6/12 is about $100/day for an 8 hour day - or $500/wk. In SoCal I can guarantee you that your $6/$12 dealer is making more than $500/wk for a job which requires less skill and training. This is not to say that I begrudge a good dealer a fair wage - goodness knows they put up with alot with little appreciation - but imo many go overboard. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, kimmi690, 27. Sep 2003 12:30 | ||
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| I generally tip well, because I live on tips also(bartender), and I do it every single time...if I win big, the dealer gets a small bit of the pot...generally I always tip, this is how they make their living. And I know what its like to be stiffed...If you want excellent service in a crowded bar, do you tip well? I guarantee you the bartender won't give you a second glance if you dropped a quarter after settling a $20 bar tab. Dealers make more per hour than I, but I believe in the Karma...generosity always rewards, even if you don't always win! Kimmi :) | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Rick B., 27. Sep 2003 18:45 | ||
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| QUESTION? Has anyone been taped-out & the dealer, has given you food & gas money? Just a question, Rick B. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, kimmi690, 27. Sep 2003 19:04 | ||
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| I have had many a customer help me with much bigger things than that, and continued being a regular...I have sat in many a casino wondering where my money went, but I ALWAYS tip the dealer...tapped out or not. They are working, I am having fun...Its not their fault I lost all of my money!!! Kimmi :) | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, xf1000, 27. Sep 2003 20:04 | ||
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| Angel, I was wondering if you could help me out and give me some advice with tipping. I have only been playing poker for about 4 months. I recently won a small tourney at my local B&M and I won $700 on a $45 dollar entry. And the house claims that $5 from every entry goes to the dealers. Anyway could you give me some advice on tipping after winning money in a tourney that takes about two and a half hours. thanks a lot. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Angel, 28. Sep 2003 08:30 | ||
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| That's a tough one to answer re: $700 win on a $45 entry. First of all congrats. Secondly, on tourneys there is so much varience between casino's on what is expected/desired and politically sound to toke. The casino I am regularly at now recommends to the winners of a tourney that they toke 10% which I feel is outrageous - but I have aquiecsed in the interests of politics - my wife works there after all. At the WSOP the dealers split 0.65% of the total buy-ins plus winners were solicited gently for another 1% (not by the dealers themselves but but tournament staffer Bonnie Damiano) Whatever was toked was split 2/3 to the dealers and 1/3 to the tournament staff. Not sure that helps but it's the extent of my knowledge on the subject of tourney tipping. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, xf1000, 28. Sep 2003 12:38 | ||
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| Thanks for the info Angel. 10% sounds steep to me as well but I will take that into consideration next time. thanks again and good luck. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Rick B., 27. Sep 2003 21:25 | ||
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| Life is a 2 way street. When working I either make enough on my own, or go find a better job. One usually choose their job, they're not assigned one when they are born. Just thinking out loud (not PC, I guess) Rick B. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, kimmi690, 27. Sep 2003 21:37 | ||
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| LOL...I'm sorry for you!!!!! It bites when the job finds you and not the other way around... Kimmi :) | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, KJo, 27. Sep 2003 22:34 | ||
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| I'm sick and tired of people feeling that tipped employees are automatically undeserving, or lesser people because they chose a job that requires tips to make a decent income. This is the way our economy works- it is designed to support/allow these types of jobs (waiters, bartenders, dealers, etc.) If these employees weren't tipped, our country's economic system would be completely different and you would still pay in some way, shape or form and you wouldn't have the option of paying more or less depending on the quality of service. If you don't like tipping people, don't patronize companies or places where tipping is expected for good service. Livelihoods depend on it- and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm off my soapbox now. Eli on 27. Sep 2003 21:25 Rick B. wrote: > > Life is a 2 way street. When working I either make enough on my own, or go find a better job. > One usually choose their job, they're not assigned one when they are born. > > Just thinking out loud (not PC, I guess) > > Rick B. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, kimmi690, 27. Sep 2003 23:08 | ||
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| Thank you...I probably make more than most! Thank goodness for America....LOL, and BTW,,,If I really wanted to use the college degree...I'd be at the UN working harder than I am now...for less money.. HMMMMM doesn't take brain surgery! LOL Kimmi :) | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Rick B., 27. Sep 2003 23:11 | ||
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| Are dealers self employed, or are they employees of the card room? | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, kimmi690, 27. Sep 2003 23:44 | ||
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| Dunno...why don't you ask them during a game? i am sure they will be honest with you!!! | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, gary ford, 28. Sep 2003 00:42 | ||
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| on 27. Sep 2003 23:11 Rick B. wrote: > Are dealers self employed, or are they employees of the card room? Ususally minimum wage employees, dependent on tips to make a living | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, chasepoker, 28. Sep 2003 08:54 | ||
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| I am thinking Reservoir Dogs...just tip the Waitress Mr Pink. Thank god in the UK our dealers get paid good enough money to survive ! I have never played in the US but if you dont tip the dealer how well does this go down ? Is there a lot they can do if you dont tip them ( as in if they are rubbish). Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, timmer, 28. Sep 2003 09:22 | ||
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| I'm sick and tired of people expecting me to give them extra money for doing any thing but a exemplary job. If a bar keeper turns around fills a glass and then expects an extra buck from me he's gunna be disappointed. If he fills my glass for a few hours, keeps my end of the bar cleaned, is helpful and nice to my friends and other customers as well, does a good job, he will get a fiver at the end of the sit. You see tipping is for good service not for services rendered. Same for a dealer . You don't tip a dealer for slinging good cards at you tip for good service . A tightly run game with no major mistakes. If you tip as much as some people suggest you will never be anything but the smallest winner in any low limit game. You will simply tip off all your winnings. A much better than average player can win about 10 per hour in a low limit poker game . If you tip off 2 bucks per down and 1 buck per hour to the drink girl you are now winning a measly 3 bucks per hour. The best way to tip is performance based tipping. At the poker table that means end toking or toking at the end of the down (dealers time at the table) If the dealer runs a tight game with no major mistakes the give them a tip and say thanks for the good down. I toke the top 1/10 of the dealers 2 bucks the top 1/3 1 buck bad dealers get nothing . A jack pot or a tourney win is 2% under 10,000 and 1% over 10,000 minus what ever I have already contributed into the toke pool. I toke the drink girl .50 per drink and usually order two at a time . ( water and whatever). However I usually bring a big gulp of iced tea to the table with me. Karma doesnt pay my bills and neither do the dealers or cocktail waitresses. And I dont pay their bills either . I will However, reward these people for prompt excellant service. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Mark, 28. Sep 2003 13:11 | ||
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| i agree with you timmer. I don't tip poor waitresses, and i don't tip poor dealers. I expect that a dealer will keep the game moving smothly, be fair in all decisions, AND keep the players in line. My biggest pet peev is when a player starts ranting like a baby, throws his cards, verbally abuses anyone, etc, etc, and the dealer does nothing. I expect the dealer to say something and take appropriate action. This type of poor behaviour (on the part of the player) usually makes some players nervous and they tend to tighten up because of it, and it generally creates a bad atmosphere. I don't like drawing attention to myself by having to be the one to say something, and i shouldn't have to. A good dealer stops it before it becomes a problem. If something like that does happen, all tipping stops. Mark | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, gary ford, 6. Oct 2003 16:05 | ||
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| i disagree----A good player should step in- just like a good citizen would. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Mark, 6. Oct 2003 16:45 | ||
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| on 6. Oct 2003 16:05 gary ford wrote: > i disagree----A good player should step in- just like a good citizen would. Gary, I do step in and say something when things start to get out of hand (or if it looks like it will shortly), but i don't think a player should have to. I don't like having to draw attention to myself, and i have a hard time letting things go when it becomes personal (i've ended up on tilt becasue of arguements i shouldn't have been involved it). I've since learned how to keep emotional control during arguements for the most part. I thought i was paying a rake so that i could sit down into a well managed game. I expect that every casino "I am paying money to" will regulate and fairly manage a poker game. I've seen it done very well and it does not take much effort on the casino's part. I've also been in Casino's that can't run a smooth game and it seems like they have to work at being inept. Mark | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, ADAM THE EXPERT, 28. Sep 2003 00:58 | ||
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| WELL, YOU'RE IN LUCK. NOT ONLY IS ADAM THE EXPERT ONE OF THE TOP EXPERTS IN PLAYING POKER IN THE WORLD, HE IS THE NUMBER ONE AUTHORITY ON DEALING POKER IN THE WORLD, AND STILL DEALS A MEAN GAME. THE STANDARD TIP, IS ONE DOLLAR. ONCE IN A GREAT WHILE, YOU CAN GIVE TWO, BUT THAT'S ABOUT THE LIMIT. IF IF YOU INTEND TO MAKE MONEY IN POKER, IF YOU ARE THERE TO HAVE ENTERTAINMENT, TIP WHATEVER YOU CHOOSE. NOTE; IN CITIES WITH A VERY HIGH COST OF LIVING, THE CUSTOMARY TOKE, CAN BE TWO DOLLARS. EXCESSIVE TIPPING, CAN BE A MAJOR, MAJOR LEAK IN YOUR GAME.; IF YOU INTEND TO BE A WINNING PLAYER, CEASE WITH THE FOUR DOLLAR TOKES, THAT'S JUST TOO MUCH. REMEMBER, ONE DOLLAR A HAND, EXTRAPOLATES TO ABOUT 800 A WEEK, IN NET TOKES, PLUS ALMOST 300 A WEEK IN MINUMUM WAGE. THIS IS WHAT A PROFESSIONAL DEALER MAKES. YOUR OCCASIONAL TWO, WILL BE APPRECIATED, AND WILL HELP MAKE UP FOR THE TIMES WHEN THE DEALER DOES NOT RECEIVE ANY TIP AT ALL. I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND NOT TIPPING, AS DEALERS CAN, TAKE COUNTERMEASURES AGAINST YOU, IF THEY REALLY DON'T LIKE YOU. AND, IT'S NOT VERY PLEASENT, TO BE THE GUY WHO EVERYONE HATES. I SHOULD KNOW. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, kimmi690, 28. Sep 2003 01:21 | ||
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| God forbid you order a drink anywhere near me! | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, gary ford, 6. Oct 2003 16:07 | ||
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| is that last line a clue to what you are really like? Do you yell when you talk or just online???? | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Urban Chaos, 28. Sep 2003 05:00 | ||
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| Thanks to everyone who replied! I really appreciate your responses. -Urban "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. " | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Rick B., 28. Sep 2003 10:31 | ||
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| I'm glad to see, there are others, who feel the same way I do. This has been a wonderful can of worms. The word "TIPS" mean something, but what? Just give me money, because I'm here. No I don't think so. Rick B. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, 4 POKER, 28. Sep 2003 10:37 | ||
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| on 28. Sep 2003 10:31 Rick B. wrote: > > I'm glad to see, there are others, who feel the same way I do. This has been a wonderful > can of worms. The word "TIPS" mean something, but what? Just give me money, because > I'm here. No I don't think so. > > Rick B. The word Tips stands for : *To *Insure *Prompt *Service. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, gary ford, 28. Sep 2003 17:42 | ||
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| on 28. Sep 2003 10:37 4 POKER wrote: > on 28. Sep 2003 10:31 Rick B. wrote: > > > > I'm glad to see, there are others, who feel the same way I do. This has been a wonderful > > can of worms. The word "TIPS" mean something, but what? Just give me money, because > > I'm here. No I don't think so. Tipping is a CUSTOM that originated before the service economy became the dominent sector of the economy. Now, social pressure makes it virtually a requirement that you tip , the only remaining debate is over how much. You could argue that if management raised the wges to a level where it was a reasonable living wage, the service provided would cost more. On the other hand, you could argue that management is exploiting the workers and expecting the tipping public to make up the difference. An extreme example of this is the very popular strip clubs here and in other metropolitan areas where the girls have to pay to work there. Either a flat rate or a %. Bartender, waitress, bell boy, dealer, or other service person deserves consideration, whatever you decide that consideration to be is your business. Frankly, I would always tip Kimmi and never tip ADAM. Because of their attitude not their sex. Well, mostly, lol Gary > > > > Rick B. > > > The word Tips stands for : *To *Insure *Prompt *Service. > > 4P- | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, KJo, 28. Sep 2003 22:15 | ||
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| Except that it has become more than just a custom when the IRS assumes certain service employees make at least a certain amount in tips, whether they did or not, and taxes them accordingly. Or in some states where minimum wage doesn't apply to tipped employees, and they only need to be paid $2.13 an hour (or whatever the reduced wage is these days). This isn't management exploiting its workers, it is management working under the system that exists and is much bigger than them. Nobody expects anything less than good service to be tipped, and nobody expects all employees who want tips to get them (such as the jar on the counter at virtually every place now). But there are many professions that REQUIRE tips, and the economy and our social structure are built to support that system. Yes, the debate can rage as to how much, that's fine. Just remember next time anyone feels that the waiter doesn't deserve a tip that the waiter still needs to tip out the busser, bartender, food runner, host, etc., and that the IRS is going to assume that you tipped 8% of the check regardless of whether you did or not. That's why the 15% standard exists, and it has become so ingrained that entire industries (and the IRS) structure themselves. And yes, if tips didn't happen expect menu prices (among other services) to increase by 10-15% instantly, and you no longer have the option of varying your tip based on the level of service. And expect rakes to go up by $1 too. Eli on 28. Sep 2003 17:42 gary ford wrote: > on 28. Sep 2003 10:37 4 POKER wrote: > > on 28. Sep 2003 10:31 Rick B. wrote: > > > > > > I'm glad to see, there are others, who feel the same way I do. This has been a wonderful > > > can of worms. The word "TIPS" mean something, but what? Just give me money, because > > > I'm here. No I don't think so. > > Tipping is a CUSTOM that originated before the service economy became the dominent sector of the > economy. Now, social pressure makes it virtually a requirement that you tip , the only remaining > debate is over how much. You could argue that if management raised the wges to a level where it was > a reasonable living wage, the service provided would cost more. On the other hand, you could argue > that management is exploiting the workers and expecting the tipping public to make up the > difference. An extreme example of this is the very popular strip clubs here and in other > metropolitan areas where the girls have to pay to work there. Either a flat rate or a %. Bartender, > waitress, bell boy, dealer, or other service person deserves consideration, whatever you decide that > consideration to be is your business. Frankly, I would always tip Kimmi and never tip ADAM. Because > of their attitude not their sex. Well, mostly, lol > Gary > > > > > > Rick B. > > > > > > The word Tips stands for : *To *Insure *Prompt *Service. > > > > 4P- | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Boftx, 29. Sep 2003 12:03 | ||
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| I'm gonna put my foot in my nouth here. I almost NEVER tip when I see a tip jar out simply because with the exception of bars it is almost always inappropriate. You don't tip the counter staff at McDonalds, why would the counter staff at Starbuck's expect to get tips? On the other hand, I am of the old school that tips $1/drink, every drink, at bars. I also enjoy exceptionally good service at those bars I return to. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, gary ford, 6. Oct 2003 16:12 | ||
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| LOL---- Old school at bars but not at Starbucks | ||
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| Thanks again!, Urban Chaos, 29. Sep 2003 00:37 | ||
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| I've been pleased by the varying opinions here. Giving me much to think about, so I'm glad I finally got around to asking about this. I am one who overtips food servers, because I understand how that industry works and I am big on solid customer service. My standard is 20%, instead of the accepted standard of 15%. The tip goes drastically down from 20% for poorer service and possibly up for exceptional service. And like Eli (KJo) says in his post below, "there are many professions that REQUIRE tips, and the economy and our social structure are built to support that system." While I don't necessarily like that, I'll contribute to it where I personally feel its both necessary AND worthy. Now, as I said in my original post, many people who tip dealers feel compelled to do so. (raises hand) And worse, some tip dealers when they win a pot BECAUSE they win a pot, as if the dealer had anything to do with them actually winning the hand (or putting down GOOD cards). I'm one to tip when I win, but I don't want it to be BECAUSE I won...it's just a convenient time to do so and psychologically I guess there IS an appreciation that is being shown because the pot is coming my way. And that is partly why I asked, because I prefer to reward a GOOD dealer, as Angel said...one who runs the table well, not one who is "lucky" for me. And I wanted to get the thoughts of others to help me realign my thinking. So I truly appreciate the comments, because within the various (and conflicting) opinions, I got what I wanted. I think I'll start tipping at the end of a dealer's "down" (new lingo I just picked up--in CA we call it the dealer's push, and get a new dealer every 30 minutes) based on the way the dealer ran the game. Boy is that going to be an adjustment...not only to my habit of tossing the dealer a chip or 2 from each pot, but to my psyche (guilt, heh) at NOT tipping for each hand I win. -Urban "If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people; and if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you. " | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Mark Barnett II, 29. Sep 2003 12:38 | ||
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| ok my personal thought on this. when i was training to be a dealer the standard for a good game was about 20 hands per half hour, lets knock it down to 15 cause fast doesnt always equate to good. thats 30 hands an hour that person is dealing thats 240 hands per shift *roughly* at $.50 a hand thats $30/hour before any wage if the accepted practice is tip after each hand i think $.50 is more than fair *your trying to make money too ya know or why are you here reading* if you want to wait for down to be over tip $1 *everyone at table tips like this thats $15+ they get* im willing to do my fiar share to help the dealers but im there to make money also and i start tipping much more and that starts taking a serious bite out of my earnings | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, KJo, 29. Sep 2003 13:18 | ||
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| Your math is a bit off, if a dealer deals 240 hands at $.50 a hand they will get $120 on the day, which is $15 an hour for an eight-hour shift. That + minimum wage is a decent working wage, though nothing to write home about particularly here in CA. However, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would guess that dealers have to tip out the chip runners, much like waiters have to tip out bussers, bartenders and food servers, which would cut into their pay. Don't forget also that dealers don't deal a full 8 hours, if poker dealers keep schedules the way other dealers do then they will have a 15-20 minute break every hour. Dealers out there, is this correct? Eli on 29. Sep 2003 12:38 Mark Barnett II wrote: > ok my personal thought on this. > when i was training to be a dealer the standard for a good game was about 20 hands > per half hour, lets knock it down to 15 cause fast doesnt always equate to good. > thats 30 hands an hour that person is dealing thats 240 hands per shift *roughly* > at $.50 a hand thats $30/hour before any wage if the accepted practice is tip after > each hand i think $.50 is more than fair *your trying to make money too ya know or > why are you here reading* > if you want to wait for down to be over tip $1 *everyone at table tips like this > thats $15+ they get* > > im willing to do my fiar share to help the dealers but im there to make money also > and i start tipping much more and that starts taking a serious bite out of my > earnings | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Angel, 29. Sep 2003 18:43 | ||
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| Eli, Yes, in most places dealers have to tip out. How much varies significantly with the location. Interestingly, at the casino my wife works at, a class action has been started against the casino for charging a flat 'tip out' of $3/down which management then distributed to all those who they felt should be tipped out. It is also true that dealers have to take breaks during which time they are not getting tipped and are on minimum wage - depending on the casino's staffing and business this varies but can be between a 30 minute break every hour to locked in for an 8 hour shift (no break). Both of these are unusual and normally it is 3 or 4 30 minute downs followed by a 30 minute break. While I'm not going to give a specific average, the dealers at the casino which I frequent and that my wife works at, take home an average of well over $1000/wk. That is however, considerable in the industry. I don't know anyone in Vegas who is making that kind of money - there $100 is a good day. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, Mark Barnett II, 3. Oct 2003 11:42 | ||
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| OOPS! your right on the math, i divided 240 by 8 and got 30. i think where my problem came from was trying to advise a $1 tip is too much (thats $30/hour in my example) and giving my reasoning for $.50. btw i think my 240 hands in a shift is pretty low as thats only 30 hands an hour, if a dealer is running a well run table thats moving i would think they could crank this number much higher. btw dont get me wrong, i WANT the dealers to make money, and i get pissed at myself if i forget to tip after i win a decent pot *karma issue for me* and i want them to feel good about their jobs but i want to make money too. and one point about tipping and jackpots or tournements, if we are told repeatedly that dealers have nothing to do with the cards we are dealt (bad beats) then the same exact logic must hold for the other way, the dealer did nothing special to win you the jackpot/tournement. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, TheWarden, 24. Nov 2003 18:04 | ||
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| My rough calculations suggest that dealers make approximately $80,000 per year. This would be an average of $1 tip per hand, 35 hands per hour (I've counted many times), 40 hour week, 2000 hours per year, plus a minimum wage of $5 per hour. If there are any dealers out there who can accurately say what they earn in a year at full time, I would appreciate a response, but it has to be close to this, unless I'm missing something important. I must agree with Adam the Expert that this is the best-paying job in the world relative to the educational requirements. I believe $.50 is an adequate tip per hand. This would lower the annual earnings to $45,000/year, which seems more on par with what a job like that should pay. I understand that the dealers make most of their living through their tips, but I am also trying to make a living, and why should their earning of a living take precedence over mine? The whole notion of tipping the dealer for pushing you a pot is a flawed concept, as they have absolutely nothing to do with your winning, which is a combination of your skill and how the cards are falling that session. I read the previous posts on dealer tipping but still have several questions to pose: First of all, there were no responses from the experts on this site on the subject of dealer tipping. I would like to know how much they routinely tip dealers, and whether it changes depending on the level at which they are playing. And how should the professional player deal with possible adversity if he is the one doing the least tipping at the table? Also, when considering the infamous 1 big bet per hour, is this above and beyond (i.e. totally separate) from dealer tips? Or should tips then be deducted from someone's hourly rate to arrive at a net hourly profit? Thirdly, what incentive is there for professionals to go to a brick and mortar casino and pay $4 a hand in rake ($12/hour) and be expected to tip the dealer $1 per pot ($3/hour), when they can play online with a $3 rake and no tips? This equates to an extra $6 an hour or $12,000 a year to play in a brick and mortar casino. This is before even considering the fact that you can play at least twice as many hands per hour on line. Will casinos ever lower the rake in order to compete with online sites? I am almost at the point where I won't be going to the brick and mortar casinos anymore. I would like the professionals to respond to the above queries. All other responses are welcome, too, of course, and please post them. However, this is really only a major issue for the professional player. on 29. Sep 2003 12:38 Mark Barnett II wrote: > ok my personal thought on this. > when i was training to be a dealer the standard for a good game was about 20 hands > per half hour, lets knock it down to 15 cause fast doesnt always equate to good. > thats 30 hands an hour that person is dealing thats 240 hands per shift *roughly* > at $.50 a hand thats $30/hour before any wage if the accepted practice is tip after > each hand i think $.50 is more than fair *your trying to make money too ya know or > why are you here reading* > if you want to wait for down to be over tip $1 *everyone at table tips like this > thats $15+ they get* > > im willing to do my fiar share to help the dealers but im there to make money also > and i start tipping much more and that starts taking a serious bite out of my > earnings | ||
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| Attention Professionals, TheWarden, 26. Nov 2003 00:29 | ||
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| Are there any professionals out there who can respond to this? In particular, I would greatly appreciate a response from any or all of the experts on this site. Thank you. on 24. Nov 2003 18:04 TheWarden wrote: > My rough calculations suggest that dealers make approximately $80,000 per year. This > would be an average of $1 tip per hand, 35 hands per hour (I've counted many times), 40 > hour week, 2000 hours per year, plus a minimum wage of $5 per hour. > > If there are any dealers out there who can accurately say what they earn in a year at > full time, I would appreciate a response, but it has to be close to this, unless I'm > missing something important. > > I must agree with Adam the Expert that this is the best-paying job in the world relative > to the educational requirements. I believe $.50 is an adequate tip per hand. This would > lower the annual earnings to $45,000/year, which seems more on par with what a job like > that should pay. I understand that the dealers make most of their living through their > tips, but I am also trying to make a living, and why should their earning of a living take > precedence over mine? > > The whole notion of tipping the dealer for pushing you a pot is a flawed concept, as they > have absolutely nothing to do with your winning, which is a combination of your skill and > how the cards are falling that session. > > I read the previous posts on dealer tipping but still have several questions to pose: > > First of all, there were no responses from the experts on this site on the subject of > dealer tipping. I would like to know how much they routinely tip dealers, and whether it > changes depending on the level at which they are playing. And how should the professional > player deal with possible adversity if he is the one doing the least tipping at the > table? > > Also, when considering the infamous 1 big bet per hour, is this above and beyond (i.e. > totally separate) from dealer tips? Or should tips then be deducted from someone's hourly > rate to arrive at a net hourly profit? > > Thirdly, what incentive is there for professionals to go to a brick and mortar casino and > pay $4 a hand in rake ($12/hour) and be expected to tip the dealer $1 per pot ($3/hour), > when they can play online with a $3 rake and no tips? This equates to an extra $6 an hour > or $12,000 a year to play in a brick and mortar casino. This is before even considering > the fact that you can play at least twice as many hands per hour on line. Will casinos > ever lower the rake in order to compete with online sites? I am almost at the point where > I won't be going to the brick and mortar casinos anymore. > > I would like the professionals to respond to the above queries. All other responses are > welcome, too, of course, and please post them. However, this is really only a major issue > for the professional player. > > > > on 29. Sep 2003 12:38 Mark Barnett II wrote: > > ok my personal thought on this. > > when i was training to be a dealer the standard for a good game was about 20 hands > > per half hour, lets knock it down to 15 cause fast doesnt always equate to good. > > thats 30 hands an hour that person is dealing thats 240 hands per shift *roughly* > > at $.50 a hand thats $30/hour before any wage if the accepted practice is tip after > > each hand i think $.50 is more than fair *your trying to make money too ya know or > > why are you here reading* > > if you want to wait for down to be over tip $1 *everyone at table tips like this > > thats $15+ they get* > > > > im willing to do my fiar share to help the dealers but im there to make money also > > and i start tipping much more and that starts taking a serious bite out of my > > earnings | ||
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| Re: Attention Professionals, Roy Cooke, 26. Nov 2003 10:31 | ||
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| Very few dealers average a dollar a hand....Also they do not sit in the box 2000 hours a year.......60k a year is a big number for a dealer in Vegas...She better be a good dealer and cute to make that :-)! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 26. Nov 2003 00:29 TheWarden wrote: > Are there any professionals out there who can respond to this? In particular, I would greatly > appreciate a response from any or all of the experts on this site. Thank you. > > on 24. Nov 2003 18:04 TheWarden wrote: > > My rough calculations suggest that dealers make approximately $80,000 per year. This > > would be an average of $1 tip per hand, 35 hands per hour (I've counted many times), 40 > > hour week, 2000 hours per year, plus a minimum wage of $5 per hour. > > > > If there are any dealers out there who can accurately say what they earn in a year at > > full time, I would appreciate a response, but it has to be close to this, unless I'm > > missing something important. > > > > I must agree with Adam the Expert that this is the best-paying job in the world relative > > to the educational requirements. I believe $.50 is an adequate tip per hand. This would > > lower the annual earnings to $45,000/year, which seems more on par with what a job like > > that should pay. I understand that the dealers make most of their living through their > > tips, but I am also trying to make a living, and why should their earning of a living take > > > precedence over mine? > > > > The whole notion of tipping the dealer for pushing you a pot is a flawed concept, as they > > have absolutely nothing to do with your winning, which is a combination of your skill and > > how the cards are falling that session. > > > > I read the previous posts on dealer tipping but still have several questions to pose: > > > > First of all, there were no responses from the experts on this site on the subject of > > dealer tipping. I would like to know how much they routinely tip dealers, and whether it > > changes depending on the level at which they are playing. And how should the professional > > > player deal with possible adversity if he is the one doing the least tipping at the > > table? > > > > Also, when considering the infamous 1 big bet per hour, is this above and beyond (i.e. > > totally separate) from dealer tips? Or should tips then be deducted from someone's hourly > > > rate to arrive at a net hourly profit? > > > > Thirdly, what incentive is there for professionals to go to a brick and mortar casino and > > pay $4 a hand in rake ($12/hour) and be expected to tip the dealer $1 per pot ($3/hour), > > when they can play online with a $3 rake and no tips? This equates to an extra $6 an hour > > > or $12,000 a year to play in a brick and mortar casino. This is before even considering > > the fact that you can play at least twice as many hands per hour on line. Will casinos > > ever lower the rake in order to compete with online sites? I am almost at the point where > > > I won't be going to the brick and mortar casinos anymore. > > > > I would like the professionals to respond to the above queries. All other responses are > > welcome, too, of course, and please post them. However, this is really only a major issue > > > for the professional player. > > > > > > > > on 29. Sep 2003 12:38 Mark Barnett II wrote: > > > ok my personal thought on this. > > > when i was training to be a dealer the standard for a good game was about 20 hands > > > per half hour, lets knock it down to 15 cause fast doesnt always equate to good. > > > thats 30 hands an hour that person is dealing thats 240 hands per shift *roughly* > > > at $.50 a hand thats $30/hour before any wage if the accepted practice is tip after > > > each hand i think $.50 is more than fair *your trying to make money too ya know or > > > why are you here reading* > > > if you want to wait for down to be over tip $1 *everyone at table tips like this > > > thats $15+ they get* > > > > > > im willing to do my fiar share to help the dealers but im there to make money also > > > and i start tipping much more and that starts taking a serious bite out of my > > > earnings | ||
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| Re: Attention Professionals, TheWarden, 26. Nov 2003 23:09 | ||
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| I based my estimate on Canterbury Park in MN, where I regularly play. The absolutely average at least $1 a hand, often getting between $2 and $5 for bigger pots. Perhaps it is different in Vegas. I would welcome any comments from players (or dealers) on the tipping customs where they play (or deal). Also, Mr. Cooke, and any other professional players who would like to respond... 1) How much do you routinely tip? 2) How do you figure this into your calculations of hourly rate? 3) Do you tip less than other players at the table because you are a professional, and have you experienced any adversity because of this? 4) Will casinos ever lower their rake or tipping expectations to compete with online sites? on 26. Nov 2003 10:31 Roy Cooke wrote: > Very few dealers average a dollar a hand....Also they do not sit in the box 2000 hours a > year.......60k a year is a big number for a dealer in Vegas...She better be a good dealer and cute > to make that :-)! > > Life is Good :-) > Roy Cooke > > on 26. Nov 2003 00:29 TheWarden wrote: > > Are there any professionals out there who can respond to this? In particular, I would greatly > > appreciate a response from any or all of the experts on this site. Thank you. > > > > on 24. Nov 2003 18:04 TheWarden wrote: > > > My rough calculations suggest that dealers make approximately $80,000 per year. This > > > would be an average of $1 tip per hand, 35 hands per hour (I've counted many times), 40 > > > hour week, 2000 hours per year, plus a minimum wage of $5 per hour. > > > > > > If there are any dealers out there who can accurately say what they earn in a year at > > > full time, I would appreciate a response, but it has to be close to this, unless I'm > > > missing something important. > > > > > > I must agree with Adam the Expert that this is the best-paying job in the world relative > > > to the educational requirements. I believe $.50 is an adequate tip per hand. This would > > > lower the annual earnings to $45,000/year, which seems more on par with what a job like > > > that should pay. I understand that the dealers make most of their living through their > > > tips, but I am also trying to make a living, and why should their earning of a living take > > > > > precedence over mine? > > > > > > The whole notion of tipping the dealer for pushing you a pot is a flawed concept, as they > > > have absolutely nothing to do with your winning, which is a combination of your skill and > > > how the cards are falling that session. > > > > > > I read the previous posts on dealer tipping but still have several questions to pose: > > > > > > First of all, there were no responses from the experts on this site on the subject of > > > dealer tipping. I would like to know how much they routinely tip dealers, and whether it > > > changes depending on the level at which they are playing. And how should the professional > > > > > player deal with possible adversity if he is the one doing the least tipping at the > > > table? > > > > > > Also, when considering the infamous 1 big bet per hour, is this above and beyond (i.e. > > > totally separate) from dealer tips? Or should tips then be deducted from someone's hourly > > > > > rate to arrive at a net hourly profit? > > > > > > Thirdly, what incentive is there for professionals to go to a brick and mortar casino and > > > pay $4 a hand in rake ($12/hour) and be expected to tip the dealer $1 per pot ($3/hour), > > > when they can play online with a $3 rake and no tips? This equates to an extra $6 an hour > > > > > or $12,000 a year to play in a brick and mortar casino. This is before even considering > > > the fact that you can play at least twice as many hands per hour on line. Will casinos > > > ever lower the rake in order to compete with online sites? I am almost at the point where > > > > > I won't be going to the brick and mortar casinos anymore. > > > > > > I would like the professionals to respond to the above queries. All other responses are > > > welcome, too, of course, and please post them. However, this is really only a major issue > > > > > for the professional player. > > > > > > > > > > > > on 29. Sep 2003 12:38 Mark Barnett II wrote: > > > > ok my personal thought on this. > > > > when i was training to be a dealer the standard for a good game was about 20 hands > > > > per half hour, lets knock it down to 15 cause fast doesnt always equate to good. > > > > thats 30 hands an hour that person is dealing thats 240 hands per shift *roughly* > > > > at $.50 a hand thats $30/hour before any wage if the accepted practice is tip after > > > > each hand i think $.50 is more than fair *your trying to make money too ya know or > > > > why are you here reading* > > > > if you want to wait for down to be over tip $1 *everyone at table tips like this > > > > thats $15+ they get* > > > > > > > > im willing to do my fiar share to help the dealers but im there to make money also > > > > and i start tipping much more and that starts taking a serious bite out of my > > > > earnings | ||
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| Re: Attention Professionals, Angel, 26. Nov 2003 23:41 | ||
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| on 26. Nov 2003 23:09 TheWarden wrote: In Vegas it is different Warden - a good dealer might average $100/day in tips. In Alaska if you're as good as Adam claims, it might be $100/hour. In California, it's about the same as you're used to in MN - where a dealer might make $200/day. As for your questions: I tip $1/hand. I have been known to toke $1 for excellence in a tough situation even when I'm not in a pot as well as if a good dealer pushed a huge pot and just got stiffed (esp by a jerk) but I usually sit to the dealers right so I can slip in unobtrusively. I don't figure dealer tips - my hourly is after dealer tips but I don't tip the waitresses from my stack and I keep that seperate. When I can get a steak and shrimp for free - I figure the couple of bucks I'm giving the girl is the price of groceries. I've never recieved any grief for my tipping practices - but I'm usually over the top in attitude nor do I allow the dealer to take too much abuse when I'm in the game - and that's worth something. No - casino's will never lower their rake permanantly. | ||
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| Re: Attention Professionals, ADAM THE EXPERT, 27. Nov 2003 00:20 | ||
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| BOY WARDEN, YOU SURE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT YOUR POST, WAS ANSWERED, PLACING THE SAME "DARN" QUESTION, UNDER TWO DIFFERENT HEADINGS ! ! ! OK, I'LL ANSWER THIS POST, TOO IF YOU ARE PLAYING FOR SOCIAL REASONS, THEN THE "REAL" CASINOS OFFER GAMES FOR YOU. IT'S MUCH MORE FUN AND EXCITING, TO ACTUALLY BE THERE, IN PERSON. AND YES, THE SAVINGS ON TOKES, IS RATHER SIGNIFICANT, AND IS WITHIN THE TOP FIVE REASONS, WHY ADAM THE EXPERT SO STRONGLY RECOMMENDS INTERNET PLAY, OVER "REAL" CASINO PLAY. HOWEVER, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT AS A PROFESSIONAL, I WILL SAY, THAT HOLD EM GAMES, ABOVE 10-20, ARE COMPLETLY, TOTALLY, INNAPROPRIATE, FOR INTERNET PLAY!!! IT'S ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL, TO BE ABLE TO SEE THE PLAYERS, IN BIG HOLD EM. ALSO, "REAL" CASINOS, DON'T HAVE THE "MAXIMUM" BUY IN, IN NO LIMIT GAMES, SO YOU CAN MAKE A ZILLION TIMES MORE MONEY, IN THESE GAMES. THE FOOD, IN REAL CASINOS, CAN BE EXCELLENT, SO, ADAM THE EXPERT HAS NOT EXACTLY GIVEN UP ON RECOMMENDING "REAL" CASINOS FOR "NORMAL" PEOPLE, BUT, THE FOCUS OF YOUR PLAY, SHOULD BE ONLINE, IF YOU ARE REALLY SERIOUS, ABOUT MAKING MONEY. UNLESS, OF COURSE, YOU PROGRESS TO 20-40 AND UP, WHEREUPON, THE "REAL" CASINOS ARE BOSS. NO, THEY WILL NEVER LOWER THEIR RAKE TO COMPETE, AND YOU MAY BE BURNED AT THE STAKE AS A HERITIC, FOR EVEN SUGGESTING THAT !! FACT IS: THEY CAN'T LOWER THE RAKE, THEY HAVE TOO DARN MANY EMPLOYEES, TO PAY FOR. FRANKLY, IT'S THE INTERNET CASINOS, WHO SHOULD BE LOWERING THEIR RAKE!! THEY DON'T HAVE: SECURITY GAURDS, PORTERS, DEALERS, FLOORPERSONS, ASSISTENT FLOORPERSONS, CASHIERS BOARD PEOPLE, PARKING ATTENDENTS, CHEFS, SOUS CHEFS WAITPERSONS, DISHWASHERS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. IN FACT, I FIND IT A JOKE, THAT THEY CHARGE THREE BUCKS!! THE RAKE THEY ARE TAKING, IN THE LARGER 10-20 AND UP GAMES, IS ALSO A JOKE, AS IT IS IN THE POT LIMIT GAMES, WHEN HEADS UP AND SPLIT!!! NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF POKER, HAS THERE BEEN A BUCK TAKEN OUT OF A $20 POT, IN 10-20 HOLD EM, BUT NOW, INTERNET CASINOS ARE TRYING TO RE-WRITE HISTORY. SO, WARDEN WATCH OUT THAT YOU DON'T TIP AWAY ALL YOUR PROFIT, BUT UNDERSTAND THAT IF YOU ATTEMPT TO TIP FIFTY CENTS, FOR ANY BUT THE REALLY SMALL POTS, YOU WILL BE REGARDED AND TREATED, AS A "CHEAP JERK" AND NO ONE WILL LIKE YOU. ALSO, DEALERS CAN TAKE COUNTERMEASURES, AGAINST YOU, IF YOU ARE REALLY CHEAP. UP HERE IN ALASKA, WE JUST LOVE THE EXPRESSION: TAKE SOME LEAVE SOME. BE A NICE GUY, JUST FOLLOW MY RECOMMENDED TIP CHART, IN MY OTHER POST | ||
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| Re: Attention Professionals, TheWarden, 27. Nov 2003 01:51 | ||
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| on 27. Nov 2003 00:20 ADAM THE EXPERT wrote: > HOWEVER, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT AS A PROFESSIONAL, > > I WILL SAY, THAT HOLD EM GAMES, ABOVE 10-20, ARE COMPLETLY, > > TOTALLY, INNAPROPRIATE, FOR INTERNET PLAY!!! One couldn't possibly make a living at 10-20 or anything less, so of course I'm talking about bigger limit games. > > > IT'S ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL, TO BE ABLE TO SEE THE PLAYERS, > > IN BIG HOLD EM. > Is it SO critical that it offsets the $3.50 in tips per hour, the extra $1 rake per hour, and the fact that you can play 3 times as many hands per hour (assuming playing 2 tables at once online)? This equates $4.50 more per hour earning rate, plus $60 more due to the increased hands = $64.50 more per hour at 15/30, or an increase of $130,000 per year if you had the same success rate online that you do in B&M casinos. Are you saying that seeing your opponents makes THAT much of a difference? > BUT, THE FOCUS OF YOUR PLAY, SHOULD BE ONLINE, IF YOU > > ARE REALLY SERIOUS, ABOUT MAKING MONEY. At what limits?? > SO, WARDEN > > ALSO, DEALERS CAN TAKE COUNTERMEASURES, AGAINST YOU, > > IF YOU ARE REALLY CHEAP. > Like what?? | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, timmer, 26. Nov 2003 08:47 | ||
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| I dont think you are taking account for the entire picture. you must realize some people never tip and others only tip occasionally . Still other players end toke. Dealers dont always work every shift or down avalible. When you interject these variations into the equation you may come up with a more realistic number. | ||
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| Re: Dealer Tipping, TheWarden, 26. Nov 2003 23:01 | ||
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