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Server Time: 11/20/2009 5:43:11 PM PACIFIC |
 The "Empty flop", weasel, 26. Sep 2003 22:20 | ||
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| Holding something like AQo, and the flop comes 6,9,J rainbow. What the hell to do here? This is a terrifying hand thus far in my experience, and I'm not quite sure what the reason is that I'm losing so many pots. There are simply not that many AA,KK,AK hands out there to take my money, and yet when I see this I have to restrain the voice screaming FOLD in my head. Is it as simple as the fact that I'm playing with a group that is so rediculously loose that they're holding crap cards (A6, A9, etc) and I'm just better to fold even these big pocket cards because the odds are against me? | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", 4 POKER, 26. Sep 2003 22:30 | ||
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| Hi weasel, No, you shouldn't fold hands like AQ and AK; especially if you're in a position to raise with it preflop. But how you handle it 'on the flop' may be a different decision now. When the game is filled with alot of loose players and there's alot of preflop callers, it's best to not committ yourself to any more bets when you flop absolutely nothing, especially if you're out of position to do so. You can 'enter' more pots when the game is loose and passive, but if you don't hit the flop, then knowing when to just check, and perhaps fold, will make this type of game more profitable for you. good luck. 4P- | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", weasel, 26. Sep 2003 22:37 | ||
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| I follow (and agree with) that thinking, but I'm having a real tough time figuring out where the line is for entering more pots that I'd like to given the super-looseness of the game. I've been counting recently, and in my games A9 with any flop that doesn't have a face card is a very good hand. Normally A9 would be an immediate throwaway hand for me... any good ideas here? | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", 4 POKER, 26. Sep 2003 23:10 | ||
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| Hi, When I said that you can enter more pots in the passive/loose games, you still want to be playing good hands, you'll just be able to play 'more' of the hands that normally may not be playable due to your position with them because, if the game was too aggresive, there are certain hands that need to be mucked preflop because they're not quite strong enough to call multiple bets with. Example: hands like medium pocket pairs ( 7-7, 8-8) can be played with more ease from the earlier positions than if the game was loose and aggresive. You'll be getting good pot odds and it will probably only cost you one small bet to see the flop. But if you don't flop really good, you're outta there! Hands like 10-9 suited from a MP can also be played here because the likeliness of someone raising behind you is slim. K-Q suited and A-J off can also be played more in the earlier spots; but I'll probably just limp in with them though. And even with A-Q; if I'm not in a good spot to raise the hand preflop, then I'd probably just call and take it from there. The key to doing well in these loose games is to not get caught up with putting in bets on the flop unless you flop something really good, because the more players seeing the flop, the stronger/harder your own hand needs to hit, as well. hope this helps a bit. 4P- | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", Barry T, 27. Sep 2003 08:09 | ||
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| Hi. In very loose games, ALL hands are going to lose more often. Please remember that if you are ina 9-handed game inwhihc everyone goes tot he river (silly, I know, but easy to simulate) AA willl win around 33% of the time. And AA is by far the best hand. So first you need to adjust your expectations. Second, you need to realize that the pots you do win will be stuffed with chips from players who never should have been in there. You need to raise less with AQ and worse unsuited connectors. You also need to be able to release hands like AK r AQ on the flop, whether you raised or not, when seven people are in and the flop comes something like 8h, 7h,2c, You can play more pocket pairs and bad suited aces. You can even play medium suited conectors in middle-late position. You are trying to flop a huge hand (set) or huge sraw, as you will be gettingt he odds to chase with a favorable flop. You will have biigger swings. But you should make more money as well. BarryT | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", cafferacer, 27. Sep 2003 17:54 | ||
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| thank you barry. i said nearly the same thing today to someone else. AA will be cracked ( i thought everyone knew that lol) but i said 35% no one listen to my stats, heh. but the point that bad hands win and great hands lose is the thing here. why do people stay to the river with AK AA KK when they know they are beat? BAD EXPECTATIONS. i see people betting flop turn and river with ak all the time. acting like its supposed to win or something. cards dont play themselves. | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", Lou Krieger, 27. Sep 2003 11:25 | ||
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| One thing you neglected to tell us was the number of opponents in the pot with you, and counting your opponets is often as important as counting your outs. If you were heads-up, your A-Q stands a very good chance of being the best hand, but if you're looking at a slew of adversaries, you are probably doomed. Another consideration is the flop itself. Even though the flop may have missed you, it's time to decide if it stands a good chance of hitting some of your opponents. When you have a completely ragged, lowish flop, the chances of it missing everyone are far better than when the flop is something like K-T-9, with cards in the "playing zone." Lou Krieger Host at Royal Vegas Poker | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", Brian462, 27. Sep 2003 19:01 | ||
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| I play low limit as well where half or more of the people in any given hand are seeing the flop. With hands like AQ and AK I will almost always raise preflop simply to build the pots for the times I do hit. At times where I will get 5 or more callers for my raise, hitting 1 out of 3 times( I think thats about right?) is plenty enough to make a preflop raise worthwile. If I miss the flop completely I almost always let it go. The only times I might go past the flop after missing is if I have something to draw to with excess pot odds to justify it. 2 overcards usually doesn't keep me in but having an inside straight and an overcard or 2 from the button might be worth a raise to try to get some free cards(depending on who's against me) I try not to let my preflop raises "tie" me to a hand. I raise the same way with my medium pocket pairs against large groups of callers and end up folding most of those the same way when I miss. Against much smaller groups of callers I sometimes bet out to try to take it at the flop but that only works against people that don't draw to the river(which can be rare to find sometimes!). Since I don't ALWAYS bet out after I raise preflop most of the more conscientious players interpret this to mean I have something and fold right away. I'll hardly ever bet at a very loose player with the hopes that he'll fold(since I'm pretty much always dissappointed when I do.) | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", Mark Gregorich, 28. Sep 2003 13:04 | ||
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| I know you've already received plenty of good comments on playing AK or AQ types of hands when you miss the flop, but I'll throw in my two cents: In loose games with several players seeing the flop, I may raise in order to build a bigger pot should I hit my hand. However, I tend to do this more frequently when I'm suited (if 4 guys limp in front of me, I'll generally just call with AQ offsuit). If I miss the flop and its checked to me, I'll generally check. However, this depends a bit on the texture of the board. If the board is paired and small, without any obvious draws (338 rainbow, for example), I'll generally make a bet even with a lot of opponents, as they will have trouble calling me without a 3, 8, or pocket pair. Boards like 68T are automatic checks with several opponents. Playing a situation with only 1 or 2 opponents, I will bet most flops with A high when its checked to me. I might check some boards where it is too unlikely my opponents will fold (89T comes to mind), but against one opponent I'll still fire out to see if I can win the pot right away. Knowing your opponents' tendencies is helpful in playing the turn. Do they generally "take one off" and then fold on the turn if they don't improve? If so, another bet is good. Also, if a scare card comes on the turn (such as a K if you have AQ), then betting again may induce an opponent to fold a small pair (as he feels you either have AK or a bigger pair). Playing AK and AQ headsup is good, because you will frequently be up against a worse ace. This doesn't mean you'll win every time, but you'll be better than a 2:1 favorite. I think its ok to raise before the flop to build a bigger pot for the times you do hit the hand, and then check and fold if you miss and the board is scary, when you're up against several opponents. Its too likely you don't have the best hand, and also likely that hitting your hand (particularly the ace) will still not win it for you - when you have AK against 6 players and don't flop a pair, if you turn the ace it will all to frequently make someone else aces up. But, its still a high percentage hand, and making the preflop raise will win you more money when you do hit the hand. Mark | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", noiseboy, 29. Sep 2003 15:46 | ||
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| I still raise, even with lots of callers and my cards being offsuit. Although you do have to deal with the schooling effect, I still think that you want to punish the players who will cold call two bets with hands like A-rag and JTo. Since you are getting so many calls, even in raised pots, the times you win the pot more than make up for the bets you lose when you have to fold a flop you missed. The only drag is that sometimes you lose hands you should win because people chase so much when the pot gets big in loose games. So there is definitely a good argument for the way you play it as well. | ||
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| Re: The "Empty flop", noiseboy, 29. Sep 2003 15:34 | ||
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| When you completely miss the flop, usually you should check and fold, unless you have reason to think your A-high is best. For instance, if you are against only one opponent who has checked to you, you might throw in a bet because a) you might have the best hand and b) even if you don't, there is a chance that your opponent will have a hand that they will fold to a bet, like a small pair. Usually, in limit poker, you want to limit your bluffs to situations like this where you think you have a pretty good chance of taking down the pot right then with a bet. If there are a lot of people in there with you, forget about it, check along and hope to pair on the turn if nobody bets. | ||
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