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Server Time: 9/5/2008 5:13:44 PM PACIFIC |
 good play bad timing?, mfs, 26. Sep 2003 14:10 | ||
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| I was playing in a 6-12 typical holdem game. I call from middle position with KdQs after an early position limper(he was a tight aggressive player) A guy to my left calls(loose passive) the small blind calls(she plays almost every hand and when she is in she stays until the end with almost anything). The big blind checks(very tight passive player). The flop comes 9d9sTc. The small blind and big blind check the EP bets(He often bet in situations like this when it was checked to him trying to isolate himself against weaker opponents). I didn't think he had a nine unless he had A9 suited. I figured he had something like TJ suited or AT suited or a draw. Now I knew that this guy had alot of respect for my game because I was playing very tight and had showed down nothing but the nuts. I also knew that he was capable of letting a good hand loose if raised. I could see that the guy to my left was going to fold so I decided to raise. My thinking was the EP would fold and I possibly could win the pot right there. If the lady in the small blind called I wouldn't mind because she typicall called with junk. I figured the guy in the BB had a random hand and would fold. Well, the guy to my left did fold the SB called and the BB called(uh! oh!) and as advertised the EP folded. The turn is a Jack so now we have 9d 9s Tc Jh. I have my straight but I am not to comfortable about it. The small blind checks, BB bets I fear he has a boat but he may just have trips or possibly a straight. I decide I am going to find out so I raise thinking that more than likely I have the best hand and I want to punish the small blind for being in there. If the BB raises I am done. But he doesn't he just calls the small blind called as well. The river brings a 2c both players check I feel pretty good now with my nut straight I bet both players call. BB has trip nines small blind thinks she just has trip nines however, she had a two with that nine and made the fullboat at the river. Did I get what I deserved or was this a reasonable play based on my read of the opponents? Should I have just dumped this hand on the flop? or maybe just call? Typically I would dump my hand with a board like this but I saw an opportunity. Thanks for your input | ||
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| Re: good play bad timing?, 4 POKER, 26. Sep 2003 15:13 | ||
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| Hi mfs, Good play or bad timing? I would say it was both. You had strong reads over the EP opponent, you knew he was capable of laying down a pair, and you saw that the player to your left was going to fold. You felt that the EP guy was trying to buy the pot and you made a 'play' for the pot. You also stated that the SB would call with anything so it's really hard to put her on a hand, especially if she never bets or raises. There's also the BB to be concerned about. So you make an attempt to raise the EP guy on the flop. The SB calls 2 bets cold, but like you said, she could have total garbage...BUT, the BB who is tight also called two bets cold. That's the one I would fear at this point. Your read was right about the EP guy as he did fold, which is good. But, when the turn card comes and you hit your best possible card....when the SB checks and the BB bets out, you should be raising here. You have a pat hand. Grant it, there is a possible full house here, but when the BB bets out, you raise, and he only 'calls' you...and then it's check, check on the river as well by both the SB and the BB??.....I'm betting the nut straight in that spot. Had one of them check-raised you here, you would need to think about a bit, but I would still pay off one more bet on the river if it came down to that. It's not like you raised the flop and went "nuts" after that. You completed your hand here. Had you have kept betting on the turn and/or the river with 'nothing', I would say, okay, well maybe you went a little too far.....but that was not the case at all in this situation. I don't think that you got what you deserved because your reads were 'spot on' imo. You just got unlucky to have made your hand and then have it drawn out on at the river. But what I don't understand is, you saying that you didn't like the turn card. Once you raise the EP guy on the flop.... he folds, and then you get two callers putting in 2 bets cold......(let me ask you a question), with two others in there, what other card would you have wished for to come on the turn? You had to think to yourself right on the flop that the BB had some piece of the flop, no? I would have. Especially knowing how tight he was himself. But imho, even when he bets into you on the turn, you have to raise him there. To find out where you stand if nothing else. You hit your best possible card. I know you didn't like it when he bet into on the turn, but he did call 2 bets cold on the flop. (or did you forget about that?). He backed off from re-raising you because he didn't fill up on the turn OR the river. Even though you stated that the BB was passive as well, I honestly don't think he would be that passive if he made a full house.....would he? (If he wouldn't raise with nines full, then he's extremely weak). And the SB could have something that may be good enough to call with (in her opinion), and would be willing to call all bets anyway, right? If I was going to make a play for the pot like you did, where all my reads were in tact, and picked up a tell from the player to my left....if I hit a perfect card on the turn, I'm betting, and in your case.....raising. And then I would take it from there, and see if one of them plays back at me. Then, another decision has to be made. But that didn't happen in your case, so I think your bet on the river was warranted. They both played their hands way too passively in my opinion, and I can't believe the SB took all that heat, (which is okay in her thinking because she did flop trips) but....she rivered her best possible card for nines full, and *never* put in a bet or a raise. Think about that. Why do players call all those multiple bets.....make their hand...and just check and call? This was not a situation for a check/call type play. If she felt she needed to hit her kicker for a full house and have it be the best hand, then she should be raising on the river...or at least betting it. You got what they call a "cold deck" mfs. You hit a monster and someone hit a bigger monster. 4P- | ||
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| Re: good play bad timing?, mfs, 26. Sep 2003 16:28 | ||
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| Thanks for your comments 4poker. in response to your question, I didn't hate the fact that I hit the Jack on the turn I just felt uncomfortable now that The BB was still in the hand. Is this a situation where the conditions must be right to continue with this hand? Would you have considered mucking this hand on the flop? | ||
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| Re: good play bad timing?, 4 POKER, 26. Sep 2003 17:24 | ||
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| on 26. Sep 2003 16:28 mfs wrote: > Thanks for your comments 4poker. in response to your question, I didn't hate the fact that > I hit the Jack on the turn I just felt uncomfortable now that The BB was still in the > hand. > > Is this a situation where the conditions must be right to continue with this hand? Would > you have considered mucking this hand on the flop? mfs, Would I have considered mucking the hand on the flop? Absolutely. If I had a great read over the EP guy and the tell from the player behind me?......perhaps not. I think the situation was a good one for you to make that steal attempt raise with. All you did was make a play for the pot on the flop going by your reads on the players with also having a hand that could very well connect and be good if you got called. You didn't 'call' the EP guys bet, you raised him. And no, I can't say that I never made a steal attempt raise on the flop, because I have. Sometimes you win it right there, and sometimes you get called. But whatever happens after that attempt (if I get called) is where I will base my decisions on how to handle my betting then. I'm not going to always keep betting, but sometimes if I think I have a good read over somebody and/or he respects me enough to lay down his hand, then yes....I will put in another bet; and that may also depend on what the board is like and how likely I think it is that he has a good enough piece of it to make the call. All those things come into play for me, and I think that with all the thinking that you put into on this flop with those players, and knowing their tendencies and the tells in which you received.....I may have made the same play as well. I don't do it all the time, (and I'm sure you don't either).....but when situations are more clear, it can be a profitable play when everything is taken into consideration like it was with you. If you had won the pot would you feel any different about your decision on the flop? I wouldn't. The bad part is, is that you hit 'perfect' on the turn which allowed you to put in more bets, but not bets that weren't warranted. Remember, noone ever raised you, or check-raised you either. I wouldn't doubt the bets that you made on the turn, OR the river, if I were you. If I made the same play that you did, (like I said), when I complete to my perfect card on the turn, I'm raising, and if it gets re-raised, well then that's a new decision to make. So yes, in your situation, I think it was a good play. Bad timing........yeah, as it turned out it was. But it doesn't mean that your play on the flop was not a good play to attempt. 4P- | ||
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| Re: good play bad timing?, cafferacer, 27. Sep 2003 18:36 | ||
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| you played well, just didnt work out. im personally stunned that no one re-raised you on the flop. wow! they both had trips and just called! (ok, ok, one had kicker probs, but in 6-12 games i play ive never seen such tightness) so considering no re raise on the flop how the hell to you read them? well they did call so maybe they were drawing to the non nut str or had 2 pair with the nines. but the fact that the lady didnt see her boat is weird. so hindsight maybe she didnt know she had trips either! JK gl | ||
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| Re: good play bad timing?, Andrew Wells, 28. Sep 2003 19:14 | ||
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| I like the way you handled this one from start to finish. | ||
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