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Server Time: 11/20/2009 7:43:38 PM PACIFIC |
 I have developed a big leaK - help, Blue Sky, 26. Sep 2003 12:06 | ||
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| I wrote a very long post a few minutes ago and my computer froze so if this is a duplicate post to any others that show up, I'm sorry. Recently I have developed a rather large leak in my game and short of telling myself to pull my head out of my you know what I don't know what to do about it. Let me start by saying that I understand that we all must tighten up and play incredibly solid both pre and post-flop in ultra loose games. I also understand that big pocket pairs are nothing more then drawing hands in these types of games. Then why am I constatnly throwing chips into the pot when I believe that I'm beaten in these loose calling station games? IE I pick up Pocket A's and raise, the 6 or so limpers all call with out hesitation. I'm bet into on flop of 4 K 8 rainbow and when re-raised I go into call down mode to loose to 2 others at the showdown, they both flopped two pair. The second example: I raise from LMP with AK and get 7 or so callers. The flop comes out A K 3, I cap this flop and was good until a 2 shows up on the river and the gutshot straight takes down a monster pot but only after I make it 3 more bets on the river even though I knew in my heart the gutshot got there, I felt like I had to bet it. This was a live action game where as I would of been embarassed to show down many of the winning hands that these fish were draging pots with. I'm not concerned about their play as much as I want to know what i can do to correct my play. Does anyone know or understand why I cannot laydown these hands when I believe I'm beaten. This only seems to have become a problem as of recenlty. Up until a couple of weeks ago I could lay down big hands without a problem but now I feel that I must bet with these hands even though I know I beaten. The crazy part about this is that I still won over 4 BB's an hour in live action for 6 hours but I would of, could of and should of won much more by playing smarter. If you have any advice please don't hold back, maybe a good smack upside my head will help me out. Thanks in advance. | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Palinya, 26. Sep 2003 12:20 | ||
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| I'm far from an expert but it sounds to me like you know what the problem is. If you really feel that they caught their cards on the flop, turn or river and you think you've been beat why put anymore in? Especially if you get a feel for the table and know that they aren't likely to try and bluff you out. But then again... I have only been playing for a couple weeks so take it at face value :) | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, jaustin, 26. Sep 2003 12:46 | ||
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| I don't think what you're describing is really a leak. Unless you know the players really well and they only raise with two-pair or better, they could still have hands worse than yours. The pots are big enough to justify calling all the way down. In the first example, they could easily be raising with top pair and your AA is still good. What I would do is re-raise and if one caps and the other calls, you can lay it down then. If they call, but you still think you're beat, you can check it down to the river and you'll have saved yourself some bets. In the second hand, I might shut it down on the river after he raised, depending on the type of player he is. The 2 could only have helped him if he held A2, 22, or 45, only one of which you beat. Also, with A2 he is likely to just call you're re-raise, while he'll cap it with the other two. Yes, it sucks to lose to garbage hands, but just think how often the player with 45 paid you off hunting for the miracle river card that never came. | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, OUTLAW, 27. Sep 2003 01:03 | ||
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| MFS, I agree with jaustin that this is not a real leak. These games have been giving me trouble lately to the point where my bankroll is shrinking signifigantly. There is so much luck involved in these types of games that you should be happy you came out on top. Just make sure your roll can handle the swings, play your A game, NEVER tilt, and in the long run you will make a nice profit. | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Flatout_Mainiac, 27. Sep 2003 04:56 | ||
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| Your leak might be in game selection and not your general play of big cards. Having a couple of players playing any two and calling everything is great, but having a table full is not so good IMHO. Having 1/2 the table constantly seeing the river turns this game into more of a crap shoot than a game of calculated skill. In these types of games non-drawing hands loose lots of value as you will need to at least hit your set to win since there is a good chance that someone in that family pot has 2 pair or higher. So my advice is to look for a tighter game that is still generally passive. I am not sure what limits you are playing at but your game might be ready for the next level up to find a better game since you are still making 4 BB/hr while getting big hands cracked. | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, cafferacer, 27. Sep 2003 18:40 | ||
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| agreed!! i don't hear that enough, find PASSIVE/ tight games with a few loose dudes if possible. its nice to play in those even if you can't make as much if you hit a good run. barry t was saying drunk maniacs are good for your bankroll, and yes they can be. but mental health is also a good thing. and a table full of greenhorns and crazy drunks is just not appealing to me anymore no matter how much i can win! on 27. Sep 2003 04:56 Flatout_Mainiac wrote: > Your leak might be in game selection and not your general play of big cards. > > Having a couple of players playing any two and calling everything is great, but > having a table full is not so good IMHO. Having 1/2 the table constantly seeing the > river turns this game into more of a crap shoot than a game of calculated skill. In > these types of games non-drawing hands loose lots of value as you will need to at > least hit your set to win since there is a good chance that someone in that family > pot has 2 pair or higher. > > So my advice is to look for a tighter game that is still generally passive. I am not > sure what limits you are playing at but your game might be ready for the next level > up to find a better game since you are still making 4 BB/hr while getting big hands > cracked. > > > > | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Blue Sky, 29. Sep 2003 12:05 | ||
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| Your dead on with your advice....I have always believed that my game (and probably many others here,) is better suited for a mix of player types at the table. I usually try to look for a table with 3 to 4 solid rocks, 1 to 2 mediocre players and the rest total fish...whenever I find this game I tend to do very well. I guess my biggest issue (and beleive me I have spent most the last couple of days thinking about this,) is that I knew my hand was dominated many times (including but not limited to the hands I posted) and yet I still felt I had to call or even raise to prove something. I know this is the worst thought to ever have at a table, but for whateve reason I couldn't escape trying to prove to these gamble it up fish that I play solid cards. | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Easy E, 29. Sep 2003 13:22 | ||
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| "I guess my biggest issue (and beleive me I have spent most the last couple of days thinking about this,) is that I knew my hand was dominated many times (including but not limited to the hands I posted) and yet I still felt I had to call or even raise to prove something. I know this is the worst thought to ever have at a table, but for whateve reason I couldn't escape trying to prove to these gamble it up fish that I play solid cards. " DEFINATELY a huge issue to resolve. Why are you trying to "prove" anything to anyone, ESPECIALLY gamble-it-up fish? | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Lou Krieger, 29. Sep 2003 12:23 | ||
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| on 26. Sep 2003 12:06 Blue Sky wrote: "I want to know what i can do to correct my play. Does anyone know or understand why I cannot laydown these hands when I believe I'm beaten. This only seems to have become a problem as of recenlty. Up until a couple of weeks ago I could lay down big hands without a problem but now I feel that I must bet with these hands even though I know I beaten." The question is, "Why don't you trust your reads?" The hand where you had top two pair and lost to a straight on the river seemed like a pot too big for you to fold in the face of a bet on the river anyway, though you're right; you didn't have to bet it. If you read him for a striaght, you should have checked the river. On the other hand, there's no guarantee that he made a straight. He might have had some other hand you could have beaten, and you can't always suspect the worst. That's what Barry Tanenbaum calls, "MUBS" the "Monster Under the Bed Syndrome." I'm a big proponent of value betting the river whenever I can becasue I don't like leaving money on the table. The calls I get from second best hands far exceed the times I'm raised by someone who made a big hand on the river. And I can live with that variance. But I'm not always going to value bet the river. Not when I read someone for a hand that might be bigger than mine and that my opponent is someone who is likely to raise with his hand. I think you just have to trust your reads, and put a little glue on the fingers you use to fling your chips with. Lou Krieger Host at Royal Vegas Poker | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Blue Sky, 29. Sep 2003 13:44 | ||
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| Lou, Thanks for the advice. I have no reasons not to trust my reads. For whatever sense of doubt I was habing I continued to call or even worse raise when the voice in the back of my mind was telling me I was beaten. As I mentioned in my original post this is an issue I have only recently started doing (or maybe only started to recognize that I have been doing,) vs. inferior opponents. When I'm against opponents that I respect I find it much easier to believe in my reads. Hopefully by posting this and reading all of the feedback I will start to accept my reads for all players and even begin to pay extra attention to players I normally consider to have weaker games. Maybe I will have shamed my self into it, if nothing else. And an extra thanks for the glue on the finger tips advice....I'm sure most of us could use that trick a couple of times a session. | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Palinya, 29. Sep 2003 13:52 | ||
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| Bad opponents can get good cards too... and they don't hide it much so if they are telling you they have it, it's probably worth listening to them. Folding here isn't bad, be patient and save those bets for when they look weak and you know you have them. Let them make the mistake of staying in too calling with a bad hand instead. After all, we all know they will and this is when you get their bets, not when you are staying in hoping that your second or third best hand will beat them just because you don't think they are a strong player. | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Easy E, 29. Sep 2003 13:29 | ||
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| "Let me start by saying that I understand that we all must tighten up and play incredibly solid both pre and post-flop in ultra loose games" Unless you are talking about ultra-loose AND aggressive, I disagree with the first part of this statement. If you're in a game where a) players are passively calling and calling raises with general trash and b) players will call and raise with hands that should be clearly second-best... ... then you have an open passport to loosen up a LITTLE, rather than tighten up, preflop and take some speculative hands to the flop. The key is solid play on the flop and beyond, and you HAVE to be able to let go of big hands (the AK was a tough one, but reraising with it on the river may not have been the best plan) when they don't work out early. Accept the variance and cash in (as you evidently did anyway, my "I'm greedy and want 5 BB+ an hour" friend....) | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Blue Sky, 29. Sep 2003 14:04 | ||
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| Eady E. - You bring up an interesting question for me. Why would you want to loosen up your pre-flop hands in a loose game? I have always understood that you want to play premium hands that have a chance of improving...I don't believe that big pocket pairs are strong enough on their own. I definetly put suited connectors from many positions as a defenite pre-flop hand but I don't know what else you might be suggestioning to play...give me some examples. You made me laugh hard at the greedy 5 BB's an hour comment! | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, Andrew Wells, 29. Sep 2003 20:23 | ||
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| A7s, K3s, and 22 for example. If you have so many loose players, you should try to be involved in twice as many possible flush situations. In these sort of games even something like Q9s can be played profitably if the game is also passive. King rag suited has an undeserved bad reputation in very loose games. You are going to have the best flush over smaller flushes more often than the nut flush has you beat. You are now twice as likely to catch something unusual like trips with your small card as you would be if you could only play the AXs hands when strategically sound. You just want to play hands that can become powerful quickly on the flop or turn in addition to the premium hands. The small pair which can flop a set in loose game is fine. By adding the potential king high flush draws to the ace high ones, you would now be limping before the flop about as often as you would with a medium or small pair. This is the area where you can afford to play looser in one of those wild games, because you will need more complete hands to crush the no fold'em effect. | ||
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| Re: I have developed a big leaK - help, shorn, 30. Sep 2003 07:37 | ||
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| Andrew- This is true and good advice. HOWEVER, this can and should only be done by players who are confident that they can get away from the hand if they only flop top pair. I would not advise this strategy for someone who would flop a King and push it with a crap kicker. Steve | ||
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