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Server Time: 10/11/2008 6:18:14 AM PACIFIC |
 Taking Cards off the Flop...Hey Grant!, mkpoker, 26. Sep 2003 09:50 | ||
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| When I called the flop bet on this hand, I was thinking of Grant Pittman's recent post, in which he wrote that one of the biggest mistakes players make is taking cards off the flop (i.e. staying around for the turn when they've missed the flop and are probably behind). That's exactly what I did here, but given the situation, I think it was the right play. Others? We're playing 5-10 HE at a loose and very passive table. In MP, I'm dealt 66. 1 limper to me. I limp as do three others. Button raises. I call as do 5 others. At this point, I'm thinking if I don't flop a 6 (or some improbable draw), I'm out. Flop comes T84 rainbow. Two checks to me. I check (would love a free card here). All check to the button raiser who bets. Two calls to me (with two players behind me yet to act). Ignoring Grant's good advice, I call. Why? 1. We've got a good pot here, $50 so far and a bit more money likely to come in behind me. A good number of callers likely to see the turn. I know that I'm not getting the right immediate pot odds to play to a two-outer on the turn, but if I do hit, the implied odds are great. 2. Given the passivity of players behind me, I think I'm unlikely to see a raise. If this weren't the case, and I thought I'd be faced with a subsequent raise or reraise, I'd fold here. 3. The board isn't too threatening. No flush draws and only slim straight draw potential. If I do hit a set on the turn, it'll probably stand up. A glorious 6 (putting two hearts on the board) comes on the turn. All check to the raiser, who bets. I raise. He reraises. I cap. River is a blank. I bet, he calls and turns over AA. Obviously, this turned out well...but given the situation...was "taking one off the flop" a bad play? | ||
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| Re: Taking Cards off the Flop...Hey Grant!, Lou Krieger, 26. Sep 2003 10:05 | ||
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| on 26. Sep 2003 09:50 mkpoker wrote: "Flop comes T84 rainbow. Two checks to me. I check (would love a free card here). All check to the button raiser who bets. Two calls to me (with two players behind me yet to act). Ignoring Grant's good advice, I call. Why? 1. We've got a good pot here, $50 so far and a bit more money likely to come in behind me. A good number of callers likely to see the turn. I know that I'm not getting the right immediate pot odds to play to a two-outer on the turn, but if I do hit, the implied odds are great. A glorious 6 (putting two hearts on the board) comes on the turn. Obviously, this turned out well...but given the situation...was "taking one off the flop" a bad play?" Well, you won the pot, but you shouldn't use a hand's result to determine if your play was the right one. It's hard to find a situation where you're getting the right price to draw to a two-outer. Even if the board was not that threatening, I don't think your pocket pari of sixes was the favorite. After all, the jack may have hit someone and you may have been looking at an opponent with a pair that was bigger than yours. I'd have folded in that situation, unless I had a read on my opponent that led me to believe my pair of sixes was the best hand. In that case, I would have checkraised. | ||
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| Re: Taking Cards off the Flop...Hey Grant!, shorn, 26. Sep 2003 10:14 | ||
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| You were getting 13-1 on your call which isn't even close to enough. Also, your 6's weren't an overpair, so if anyone held pocket 8's or J's, you lose even if you do hit. That isn't the kind of play I would make for a two outer. I think it was a bad call that worked out well. Sorry. | ||
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| Re: Taking Cards off the Flop...Hey Grant!, shorn, 26. Sep 2003 10:14 | ||
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| I meant Ten's not Jacks, sorry. | ||
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| Re: Taking Cards off the Flop...Hey Grant!, KJo, 26. Sep 2003 10:54 | ||
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| I also think you were underestimating the potential of someone having a straight draw, with that many players someone could have easily had J9, 97, or something else that could scare you if the wrong card hits (even your 6 isn't a clean out). That, plus the possibilty of your set not even being the best set, makes it a classic example of not insuring that the hand you're drawing towards will be the best hand. So that being said, I'd say your odds weren't even close. Eli on 26. Sep 2003 09:50 mkpoker wrote: > When I called the flop bet on this hand, I was thinking of Grant Pittman's > recent post, in which he wrote that one of the biggest mistakes players make is > taking cards off the flop (i.e. staying around for the turn when they've missed > the flop and are probably behind). That's exactly what I did here, but given > the situation, I think it was the right play. Others? > > We're playing 5-10 HE at a loose and very passive table. In MP, I'm dealt 66. > 1 limper to me. I limp as do three others. Button raises. I call as do 5 > others. At this point, I'm thinking if I don't flop a 6 (or some improbable > draw), I'm out. > > Flop comes T84 rainbow. Two checks to me. I check (would love a free card > here). All check to the button raiser who bets. Two calls to me (with two > players behind me yet to act). Ignoring Grant's good advice, I call. Why? > > 1. We've got a good pot here, $50 so far and a bit more money likely to come > in behind me. A good number of callers likely to see the turn. I know that I'm > not getting the right immediate pot odds to play to a two-outer on the turn, but > if I do hit, the implied odds are great. > > 2. Given the passivity of players behind me, I think I'm unlikely to see a > raise. If this weren't the case, and I thought I'd be faced with a subsequent > raise or reraise, I'd fold here. > > 3. The board isn't too threatening. No flush draws and only slim straight > draw potential. If I do hit a set on the turn, it'll probably stand up. > > A glorious 6 (putting two hearts on the board) comes on the turn. All check to > the raiser, who bets. I raise. He reraises. I cap. River is a blank. I bet, > he calls and turns over AA. > > Obviously, this turned out well...but given the situation...was "taking one off > the flop" a bad play? | ||
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| Re: Taking Cards off the Flop...Hey Grant!, Barry T, 27. Sep 2003 09:10 | ||
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| Hi. You do not need to wait for Grant. Question: If you count the pot, did you win more than 24 bets (not counting yours after the flop)? I doubt it (your post does not tell us how many called the turn). This means you lost money in expectation even though you get very lucky. Frankly, it is plays like this that keep pros in business. You hit a hand and decide you made the right play. You will then call with underpairs in high risk situations over and over again waiting to repeat the experience, which of course you will. [Note I do not mean YOU, mk. You are actually asking about the play and trying to learn]. Given that you are drawing with terrible odds for a non-nut hand that can easily be rivered, I think you made the wrong play. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Taking Cards off the Flop...Hey Grant!, mkpoker, 27. Sep 2003 11:49 | ||
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| on 27. Sep 2003 09:10 Barry T wrote: > Hi. You do not need to wait for Grant. Question: If you count the pot, did you win > more than 24 bets (not counting yours after the flop)? I > > Frankly, it is plays like this that keep pros in business. > > Given that you are drawing with terrible odds for a non-nut hand that can easily be > rivered, I think you made the wrong play. Yikes! I don't think I've ever been slammed quite so strongly...yet so elegantly. Much as I'm willing to help fuel the poker boom and keep the pros in business, I'd rather not do so on my personal bankroll...so I'll probably avoid making similar calls in the future. In response to your question, you're right of course. Even with my good luck and a looser than average field, I returned 10 bets (not counting mine) following my flop call--a good return but well under the 24 needed to make my call a +EV play. As an aside, I want to express my thanks to Barry and all the great players and writers (pros and amateurs alike) for taking the time to look at hands like this. It's a *sure bet* that reading and posting on UPF has improved my game...and I'm grateful. | ||
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