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Server Time: 10/12/2008 4:30:56 AM PACIFIC |
 what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, spawgan, 26. Sep 2003 06:43 | ||
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| I would like some advice on how to handle a situation I came across last night. It was so bizarre, with my limited experience, I did not know what to do w/ this guy. He was the ultimate maniac. First, the guy was drunk. I mean loud obnoxious, rip roaring, Casino had to shuttle him home, drunk. For starters, he sat one to my left almost the entire night. If I moved seats, he would move to the left of me. He would automatically live straddle my BB every time. On top of that, he would automatically raise this straddle. If someone raised in front of him he would raise them. AS a side, what made this even more frustrating is I knew w/ hands like 2-6s, I couldn't go 3, 4 or 5 bets, but I would flop the flush and someone would win w/ a pair of 7s, or rightfully toss q-5, but have the board come down QQ35t. I knew I made the right play, but there were several hands that limpers to my BB would have allowed me to play that would be winners and I couldn't. I am not crying about this, it is just one thing that added to my frustration. Whenever I bet, any time, anywhere, he would raise automatically. He would make it so that if I raised to try to narrow the field, his flop and turn raises would give people the proper odds to try to draw out against me, and on several occasions they did. He would also constantly make it 12 (playing 3-6-12) to go on the river even w/ nothing. He turned it into pure gambling. Even w/out a pair on a board w/ flushes and srt8s, he would make it 12 to go. He also got miracle cards. For instance, I am in the BB and have A,Kd. This is the one time I felt comfortable calling 3 bets in my BB. flop comes down 6d,8d,Ks. I bet, thinking I have top pair, top kicker and the nut flush draw. Naturally he raises. Turn td. Now I have the Nut flush. Bet, raise. River comes 7d. I am a little worried about the srt8 flush at this point but I bet anyway. Big mistake. I am raised. I call and find he played 2-9 offsuit w/ 9d to get the str8 flush. Another hand, I have pocket Js. FLop a set. This bozo, plays the hand blind. Swear to god, he never once looked at his cards. Just either raised me or bet out the entire way. Anyway, he ended up having 2-5o and rivered a str8 to beat my set. And all he could do is laugh, loudly about his 2-5 taking down big pot like that. There were others, but I don't want to go on and on. I know first and foremost I should have left. I was up pretty well, but after an hour or 2 of this, I went on tilt. I asked for a table change, was never able to get one and there were only games at to high a limit for me. What could I have done with this maniac. Help please so I don't become a pinball machine in the future. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, shorn, 26. Sep 2003 06:59 | ||
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| Well, unfortunately the answer is sometimes there isn't anything you can do. There will be nights where you see players like this buy in for 1 rack and cash out 5. It just happens that way sometimes. The best thing you can do is use his aggressiveness to your advantage where possible and punish him when you have the goods and hope for the best. If you have a hand like top/top where you don't want a lot of competition, bet it out so he can raise it for you. If you have a drawing hand, check it to him. Don't ever bluff him and if you happen to flop a monster, slowplay it. There won't be any free cards, so no need to worry about that. But most importantly remember that if this guy never had a night like this, he would never come back and play. I understand that it can be very painful in the short run to go through this, but this guy is potentially a large part of your long run equity. Just grin and bear it and stay out of his way except with premium hands so that a lot of your chips aren't in those 5 racks. Steve | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, Rolf Slotboom, 26. Sep 2003 08:07 | ||
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| Dear Spawgan, Actually, you were in a highly profitable situation! I would do anything in my power to get in a game like this, with someone on my immediate left (re)raising all my bets, sometimes even without looking at his cards! Two things. First, quite a few poker writers have addressed the topic of how to handle a maniac, so even if you are relatively inexperienced you should be able to learn how to take maximum advantage of someone who plays like this - simply by reading the material. Second, and more importantly, I would advice you to be nice, friendly and respectful to ANY player, no matter how good or bad he / she may play. It is not just that these kinds of players can be a major source of profit for you, it is also simply the right thing to be respectful to EVERYONE- so please don't call someone "Bozo" just because he may be playing a bit differently than you would do. Good luck to you! Rolf. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, cafferacer, 26. Sep 2003 21:23 | ||
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| Rolf, i highly respect you as a player, but sometimes playing insane people is not profitable, even if they're on your right, left or under the table. everyone at the table knows how to play this guy. if you do, expect exactly what happened: gambling time. also, people always make the mistake of focusing on the one joker. what about the rest of the players?are their 5 very strong players in addition? one player doesnt take all of you money in a session so why think that 1 loose player is that important, overall game selection (something rolf hammers on) is much more important! a loose or several loose player is obviously good, but 1 nut may just be bad. everyone at the table is trying to take his money, boy thats easy... does anyone agree??? | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, Rolf Slotboom, 27. Sep 2003 15:10 | ||
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| Dear Cafferacer, I agree with most things you say. That said, I think that ONE maniac in your game is almost always profitable, it's when two or more maniacs are in your game (or maybe when the ENTIRE table starts playing as a maniac) that you might get into trouble. Also, you say that most people know how to handle a maniac. My experience is almost the exact opposite: it seems to me that quite a few otherwise good and capable players lose it entirely when a maniac enters the game who disturbs the usual routine. They either play way too loose, way too tight, move to exactly that seat they should never take, get into raising wars when they are either a small favorite or a huge dog, etc. etc. Anyway, that's just my view. Take care, and good luck, Rolf. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, cafferacer, 27. Sep 2003 21:27 | ||
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| Rolf, thank you for your response. you are right , i had too many heinekens last night! and first post! (btw, ive read your columns in cardplayer for some time, you're awesome for poker) anyway, you are correct about the adjustment to the maniac(s), maybe most dont do it right. i guess a more accurate statement is people all spot the maniac, and try to isolate him, use him to raise for them to conceal strength of hands etc. which all makes playing with him present harder. but yes, perhaps most people play looser in their presence, which is a mistake. so everyone plays loose and now you get really frustrated with all the people in pots that are trying to take drunks money. which brings me back to game selection, if the table loosens up to the point of irritation, i think its bad. if the table goes on tilt trying to keep up with maniacs, my mental health goes down and i look for tight passive games. sometimes i just love playing with nice people and so what if my hourly goes down a bit! Rock on. on 27. Sep 2003 15:10 Rolf Slotboom wrote: > Dear Cafferacer, > > I agree with most things you say. That said, I think that ONE maniac in your game is almost always > profitable, it's when two or more maniacs are in your game (or maybe when the ENTIRE table starts > playing as a maniac) that you might get into trouble. Also, you say that most people know how to > handle a maniac. My experience is almost the exact opposite: it seems to me that quite a few > otherwise good and capable players lose it entirely when a maniac enters the game who disturbs the > usual routine. They either play way too loose, way too tight, move to exactly that seat they should > never take, get into raising wars when they are either a small favorite or a huge dog, etc. etc. > Anyway, that's just my view. Take care, and good luck, > > Rolf. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, Lou Krieger, 26. Sep 2003 08:27 | ||
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| Well, you can't control the cards that fall, and if the maniac gets lucky, there's not much you can do about that but grin and bear it. But you can make lots of money playing against anyone who raises with weak cards. All you have to do is play your strong hands strongly, not play weak ones at all, and let the cards play themselves out. In the long run, your better hands are going to hold up and you'll find yourself winning money because the weak player was doing your betting for you. And you can't ask for much more than that. Lou Krieger | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, noiseboy, 26. Sep 2003 09:17 | ||
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| Hey Lou, Don't think I've seen you post here before. Welcome! | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, noiseboy, 26. Sep 2003 09:11 | ||
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| Well, you have to tighten up your starting requirements quite a bit when you know every pot is going to be 3-bet or capped. What I'll do, is wait for really BIG hands like pairs ten or higher, AK or AQs. You can also play slighty lower suited A's from late position if there are a lot of callers in every pot. Then when you get a really good hand, use crazy man to build the pot for you early because nobody respects his raises. They will call his raises with much weaker hands then they would call someone elses raises. Then I like to swoop in when I'm pretty sure that I'm best, and come over the maniac. The beautiful thing is that when he should be going "Oh damn, I'm probably beat" oftentimes Mr. Crazy will come right back over the top of you. Some of them just have the problem of wanting to always put in the last bet. He will get lucky sometimes, but overall, this can be one of your biggest sources of profit. Last night for instance, I had several crazies in the game, but one who was king of the crazies. I couldn't believe this guy was at a 6-12 table. Anyway, one hand I 3-bet before the flop with KKs and he capped, there were four or five other players. Anyway, he kept coming at me all the way to the river. At the river I just decided to check call because he had come over me AGAIN on the turn, I figured him for some weird two pair or runner-runner str8. Right when I call his final bet he shows me A-high! He was on a stone bluff! With people like this, forget entirely about trying to put them on a hand. They can show you literally ANY two cards. You just have to show down the best hand. The key is you have to be patient and wait for a really good opportunity, as just two or three of these big pots in a six hour session can send you home a big winner. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, spawgan, 26. Sep 2003 10:32 | ||
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| I appreciate all the tips. First I tried to tighten up a lot, and got sucked out by blind bets and miracle cards. I will take that. In the long run. I guess the other thing that frustrated me, was while he was constantly in raising and betting, it made it difficult to read other players. Example. I have AQ. Flop comes A-Q-9. A player w/ pocket 9s is able to slow play and let the maniac bet for him. I have top two pair, there is no raise from the pocket nines, how do I get a read on him having that. If I am in the pot, the guy will raise. The guy w/ the set bets out once, knowing it will be raised by the maniac. I guess that is the other thing that frustrated me. What could I have done to try to get a better read in hands like this. Finally, normally I like the flat out maniac. But last night he caught every miracle card, and it seemed only to catch them in pots I was in. I hope next Thursday night I see him again though. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, noiseboy, 26. Sep 2003 10:54 | ||
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| That's definitely one of the pitfalls of playing in the pot with the maniac, is that someone else with a stronger hand might be letting the maniac build his pot for him. In that case, it's hard to get a read. Just try to be aware that when others are in the pot with the maniac, you need to give them some credit, even if the maniac is the one doing the raising. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, PairTheBoard, 26. Sep 2003 11:42 | ||
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| Yea. That's the toughest part of it. It's almost like the maniac is in collusion with whoever happens to have the best hand. It's especially painful when you are getting whipsawed between the maniac and another player, with the maniac reraising the turn with practically nothing when any idiot knows the third player has a very strong hand - and you are on a draw. To make matters worse, players will overbluff the maniac to get your best hand out - knowing they can beat the maniac's hand. As you see them play against the maniac you may get to feel like you're against a whole table of maniacs - when in fact they are just adjusting to the real one. You gotta love the action though. imo, this is the most challenging, interesting, fun and profitable type of game to be in. That is if you like to gamble. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, mroban, 26. Sep 2003 14:39 | ||
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| I would have just left the table. Life's too short. Truthfully Spawgan, I just play awful in those situations and I am sure the correct answer here has something to do with playing ultra tight and so forth but the bottom line is - why bother?? One thing I have learned (and I doubt I am any more experienced than you are) is table and game selection is really important. I would rather not play at all than play in that game. Of course, if the cards are running right you can crush this guy and win some monster pots but when the cards are cold, you are going to have to deal with some crazy swings in your bankroll. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, Blade, 26. Sep 2003 21:02 | ||
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| Did you try punching him?. | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, cafferacer, 26. Sep 2003 21:13 | ||
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| someone probably already said this but.....DONT PLAY WITH JACKASSES heard of game selection!??! | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, chasepoker, 27. Sep 2003 15:53 | ||
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| I think that maybe the point everyone is missing here is that this guy got lucky and sucked out you a few times but hey its all one session and if this guy wants to try and buck the odds let him he will go broke eventualy. As long as your bankroll ( and your sanity ! ) can withstand the swings in playing on a table with someone like this i would stay and just play the way you know how. I know from your previous posts that you know how to play the game and i also am guessing that you know how to play against a guy like this the hard bit is adjusting mentaly. Be confident in your decisions and know that every time he draws out on you he is costing himself money dont fall into the trap of letting him get to you, if a guy is taking pot odds of 4-1 on a 10-1 shot he will lose all his cash eventually. Each time he flukes out smile and say ' you got me again ' knowing YOU are going to be the one winning in the long run. Cheers Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: what do you do w/ a maniac like this?, NCD, 28. Sep 2003 23:18 | ||
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| Everyone has their own spin on the same basic approaches. Mine is this: If Plan A) Fails, plan B) is get another table ASAP... Plan A) Use the idiot to your best advantage. If you know he will raise you then this gives you an edge. Tighten your starters, but I'd cinch them down REALLY tight. When I'd get them, I'd raise the big blind immediately, counting on his re-raise. This makes it 3 bets to anyone who hasn't called and 2 bets to the big blind... who will usually not want to defend at that cost. This hopefully leaves you heads up (or maybe 4 handed at most) with a drunk who's loose as a goose and you carefully chose your starters before investing your cash... so you should have a clear advantage pre-flop. Over time, getting him heads up with cards of your choosing will wear him down... lightning strikes are the exception, not the rule. If he was just getting too lucky or there was more than one wild caller / raiser then I'd find another table or go see a movie... anything to keep my bankroll away from that situation. But that's me... everyone has their own spin on the basics. NCD | ||
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