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Server Time: 10/11/2008 12:48:07 AM PACIFIC |
 Betting amounts?, jackeboy, 26. Sep 2003 04:02 | ||
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| Hello all. This is my first post on this illustrious site. I have recently moved to playing NLHE (mainly tournies) on-line. I built a reasonable bank-roll ($700 or so) playing $1/$2, $2/$4 Fixed Limit games and thought I would move to where the thrills were. I have played a couple of $10 tournies and Freerolls to sharpen my game and have been happy enough with my finishes (156/700) but here's my problem... I am having trouble reaching deep enough to shift people off hands. Obviously in Fixed Limit the bet is set and I used to love getting weak players to get a rhythm going on their raise buttons but in NL I'm floundering. I'll give an example. (please forgive any mistakes in the terminology, I'm pretty new to this) Ladbroke's Freeroll. Back after the rest break. Blinds at T400/800, I'm in EP with about average chip-count (T5,400). Play has been aggressive for the last few rounds with one player hoovering up shortstacks with terrible hands like 74o. He is chip leader at the table with around T12,500. I get KK in EP and raise T800. Folds to the chip leader, who calls from MP. Blinds folds and we're heads up. He could have anything but the way he's been playing I'm guessing at a face card and a rag. Flop is Jh 10h 4c. I bet T800 and he calls. At this stage I put him on the jack and maybe a flush draw. Turn is a 7s. I bet T800, he calls. This is my problem - I am sure that I am leading and I don't want him to draw out against me, hit his flush or double up with his rag. I don't want to go all in on a pair. I have committed a lot of my stack to this hand and I want to take it now. I had played pretty tight/aggressive up to then so he must put me on a big pair or at least a better kicker. I had about T3000 left to bet on the turn - how much should I have thrown in? All? T1600? River is a J (of course) When I see it I know I'm beat. I wait for a while to make him think I'm sandbagging and then check. He checks and shows his J6o. This was one of the few times I had that feeling where you know what the other guy has and I think poor betting on my part lost me the hand. I would appreciate any comments. | ||
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| Re: Betting amounts?, shorn, 26. Sep 2003 05:18 | ||
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| Jackeboy- First off, welcome to UPF. As for your question, I think the answer lies in your pre-flop raise and flop bet. You only raised 1x the BB with pocket Kings, and that is nowhere near enough for a hand that strong. Typically, a raise of 3-5x the BB pre-flop is the way to go because this will thin the field for sure. With a hand this strong, you don't mind someone coming back over the top of you, because then you most likely have the best hand and can win a big big pot (with the exception of someone having AA...if they do, that's poker). You have to remember that NL and PL are games where you can manipulate the odds for someone to draw. Also, only raising T800 left you with T4600 which is what your opponent is really considering when deciding whether or not to call: his implied odds of what he can win (your whole stack) if he hits his hand. If you do raise 4 or 5x the BB pre-flop and are called, then with the hand you have I think you need to move in on the flop if no Ace shows up. The pot has now become significantly large and you would rather win it right there. And, if he is stupid enough to call and he hits, again...that's poker. By only betting T800 there, you were actually giving him way better odds to draw than you should have, so in my opinion it was a very easy call for him, even with his weak hand. You can't play NL the same way as limit and be successful. Tight aggressive play will win the day, but you need to be willing to put in all your chips if the situation warrants it or you won't be successful. I believe the quote is "No Limit is not a game for players who have fear." Good luck, Steve | ||
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| Re: Betting amounts?, jackeboy, 26. Sep 2003 06:11 | ||
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| Thanks for the advice. I think it's great that people will give a considered answer to a newbie's question. I think I have to work on the aggressive side of my tight/aggressive play. Grrrr. 'i believe in evolution, not revolution - i want to evolve, not revolve' Jack | ||
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| Re: Betting amounts?, shorn, 26. Sep 2003 06:52 | ||
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| No problem. One other piece of advice on NL (especially in tournaments) is that you want to be the one showing aggression; you do not want to react to aggression. If someone else raises strong in front of you, you either need to re-raise or fold. Calling is not an option in most cases. Stick with it. NL is a blast to play and IMO, much funner than limt because you actually can force people to fold hands or make their odds so bad that you don't mind if they call when you have the goods. Good luck, Steve | ||
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| Re: Betting amounts?, Don Quixote, 28. Sep 2003 11:46 | ||
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| Thanks for this great post, shorn. It is one of the best I have read on betting. I am playing in a couple of NL freerolls on Royal later today. I shall put them to the test if I can. I usually play only limit tournies (sNg) because I dont play NL very well. Don Quixote on 26. Sep 2003 05:18 shorn wrote: > Jackeboy- > > First off, welcome to UPF. > > As for your question, I think the answer lies in your pre-flop raise and flop bet. > You only raised 1x the BB with pocket Kings, and that is nowhere near enough for a > hand that strong. Typically, a raise of 3-5x the BB pre-flop is the way to go > because this will thin the field for sure. With a hand this strong, you don't mind > someone coming back over the top of you, because then you most likely have the best > hand and can win a big big pot (with the exception of someone having AA...if they do, > that's poker). > > You have to remember that NL and PL are games where you can manipulate the odds for > someone to draw. Also, only raising T800 left you with T4600 which is what your > opponent is really considering when deciding whether or not to call: his implied odds > of what he can win (your whole stack) if he hits his hand. > > If you do raise 4 or 5x the BB pre-flop and are called, then with the hand you have > I think you need to move in on the flop if no Ace shows up. The pot has now become > significantly large and you would rather win it right there. And, if he is stupid > enough to call and he hits, again...that's poker. By only betting T800 there, you > were actually giving him way better odds to draw than you should have, so in my > opinion it was a very easy call for him, even with his weak hand. > > You can't play NL the same way as limit and be successful. Tight aggressive play > will win the day, but you need to be willing to put in all your chips if the > situation warrants it or you won't be successful. I believe the quote is "No Limit > is not a game for players who have fear." > > Good luck, > > Steve | ||
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| Re: Betting amounts?, jackeboy, 30. Sep 2003 04:49 | ||
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| Thanks again shorn - I finsihed in the money in my very next tournie. 16/300 for the princely sum of $7.50. My game is a lot stronger and I get more respect at the table. Making more with the big hands gives me the chips and the table-image to make a few moves on weaker hands. I think the poker A's with three players all-in against me may have helped too : ) 'evolution, not revolution - i want to evolve, not revolve' Jack | ||
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