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Server Time: 8/20/2008 3:04:56 AM PACIFIC |
 Has anyone else noticed this?, jaustin, 25. Sep 2003 10:51 | ||
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| I've been working on improving my NL tournament play and think I might have noticed something and wanted to see if my thinking is being affected by just a few hands or if I might be on to something: Here's the general situation - late position and everyone folds to me, I raise to steal and get one caller from a blind. He checks the flop (which misses me) and I bet hoping to pick up the pot, again I get called. Scare card comes on the turn (pairs the board or makes a flush/straight). Blind bets out (medium sized bet) and I fold. The last two times this has happened I've been shown bluffs. My thoughts on this are that if the scare card actually made his hand, he would go for the check/raise as I've shown aggression twice. Would this be a good spot to come back over the top and try a re-raise steal (assuming he's not already pot committed), or do good players know that the check/raise is the usual MO and bet out to mix things up? | ||
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| Re: Has anyone else noticed this?, Mark Gregorich, 25. Sep 2003 22:56 | ||
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| I like your questions - they are issues that good no-limit tourney players have to wrestle with. IMO, I think it may depend on what the scare card is as to whether or not your opponent will go for a checkraise. If the card improves him hand but still leaves him vulnerable to a free card, then I don't think a bet from him is surprising, as he feels the need to protect his hand. However, I don't find it too surprising that he'll bet out rather than try for the checkraise here. Its fairly common for a late position "steal" raise to make a bet on the flop, and then shut down if he's called. Most players are aware of this, so they may feel the need to "bet their own hand" on the turn. That said, betting out as a bluff when a scary card comes is also a common play here, especially if it makes a hand (such as 4 cards to a middle straight) that requires cards that a preflop raiser is not supposed to be holding. How you respond to this (including making an occasional bluff raise) is largely a question of feel - what sort of read do you have on your opponnent here? I agree with your point that good players will mix things up by betting out both their bluffs and their made hands here. This is why no limit is such a tough game - and why its important for you to put your opponents to tough decisions like this! Mark | ||
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| Re: Has anyone else noticed this?, MozMan, 25. Sep 2003 23:05 | ||
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| Yeah, that's a really tough one. I can't say if it's usually better to pay back at him, as it really depends on the opponent and how likely you think it is that he's bluffing. I can say this: if possible, if you are going to play back, make sure it's a play that puts his stack in jeopardy. This is often where (online) I will raise the exact amount he has left (assuming I have more chips). Force him to make a REAL decision about the hand. -Moz "You can see your reflection in the luminescent dash." | ||
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| Re: Has anyone else noticed this?, chasepoker, 27. Sep 2003 16:12 | ||
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| I would say that in a tournament it is ok to raise in late position to steal and even ok to bet the flop with nothing ( though it is better with outs ) but once the other guy has called twice and raised on the turn, in NL, i would say that unless you have picked up a reasonable draw then it is time to fold. Not many people will IME put in a steal raise here as it is just too risky you have showed too much aggression. I would say fold and get on with the next hand. Chasepoker PS Apologies for suddenly chaning my tune on being aggressive as i always am in NL tournaments but a lot of the posts recently have required cauton IMO :-) | ||
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| Re: Has anyone else noticed this?, cafferacer, 27. Sep 2003 17:38 | ||
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| i agree with chase on this. good post. everyone sees this a lot: raise flop, bet flop and check turn with the opponent then betting on the turn when he realizes his crappy pocketpair or after hitting something like 2nd pair is now most likely good and knows u probably have AK or AQ and not AA or other nice PP. yes they could be stealing , but chase is right, its a big risk type bluff and a solid player wouldnt commit that error very often. i shouldnt say error because MAYBE this player is very good and noticed something about your play that could get him to steal in that sopt....hmmmm on 27. Sep 2003 16:12 chasepoker wrote: > I would say that in a tournament it is ok to raise in late position to steal and even ok > to bet the flop with nothing ( though it is better with outs ) but once the other guy has > called twice and raised on the turn, in NL, i would say that unless you have picked up a > reasonable draw then it is time to fold. Not many people will IME put in a steal raise > here as it is just too risky you have showed too much aggression. I would say fold and get > on with the next hand. > > Chasepoker > > PS Apologies for suddenly chaning my tune on being aggressive as i always am in NL > tournaments but a lot of the posts recently have required cauton IMO :-) | ||
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| Re: Has anyone else noticed this?, Malachii, 5. Oct 2003 17:13 | ||
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| Also a good resource about bluffing is in Ken Warrens Texas Hold'em book. No one has metioned pot odds and when a bluff is worth the risk. Check it out. Mal | ||
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