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Server Time: 8/28/2008 12:56:57 AM PACIFIC |
 Errors Opponents Make!, Roy Cooke, 25. Sep 2003 08:44 | ||
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| There are two major errors players make. They either call when they should fold or fold when they should call. Most players tend to have a MO and stay there! It is better to try to make players who call too much call more and players who fold too much fold more. The play of your hands and the plays you make against them to gain/lose more/fewer bets should incorporate this concept. Also psychological edges can be found with many of your opponents, and can be a major factor in these types of decisions | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, stdioh, 25. Sep 2003 10:31 | ||
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| You're missing one whole class of errors and some of the most profitable opponents...those who bet/raise when they should call or fold. When you're up against a player whom you know will 3-bet top pair top kicker on the flop and on the turn nomatter what, this is the guy that you go 4-bets with when you flop bottom 2 pair. Instead of calling you down he presses and presses and presses. Just calling his 3-bet and turn bet doesn't take enough money out of him. Of course you have to know he's maniacal like that as most players won't be so brazen without having flopped at least a set. | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, Phish, 25. Sep 2003 12:21 | ||
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| on 25. Sep 2003 10:31 stdioh wrote: > You're missing one whole class of errors and some of the most profitable > opponents...those who bet/raise when they should call or fold. When you're up against > a player whom you know will 3-bet top pair top kicker on the flop and on the turn > nomatter what, this is the guy that you go 4-bets with when you flop bottom 2 pair. > Instead of calling you down he presses and presses and presses. Just calling his > 3-bet and turn bet doesn't take enough money out of him. Of course you have to know > he's maniacal like that as most players won't be so brazen without having flopped at > least a set. The way I see it, early in the hand, (pre-flop or even on the flop), the most costly error is playing (calling or raising) when you should be folding. In the middle of the hand (flop and turn), the most costly error now are ones of passivity: checking or calling when one should be betting or raising. Of course, playing instead of folding could also be significant errors here also. But in the end, by far the biggest error is folding when one should be calling. But checking instead of betting can also be significant errors. I frankly never see raising instead of just calling as ever being that big an error. Errors of aggression usually only costs one or two bets, whereas other errors can cost you the whole pot. And acts of aggression builds equity for future hands (a very under-appreciated concept) by generating action in the future when you have a monster, and more importantly in intimidating your opponents into acting more passively and controllably later. (These are issues that are not talked about enough in the poker literature, but are essential to long term results.) | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, stdioh, 25. Sep 2003 14:54 | ||
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| We're talking about errors that opponents make. If you raise when you should call that is a one bet error. If an opponent consistently raises when he should call, then that is an edge you can exploit in the long term by value betting against him frequently. | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, Phish, 25. Sep 2003 12:21 | ||
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| on 25. Sep 2003 10:31 stdioh wrote: > You're missing one whole class of errors and some of the most profitable > opponents...those who bet/raise when they should call or fold. When you're up against > a player whom you know will 3-bet top pair top kicker on the flop and on the turn > nomatter what, this is the guy that you go 4-bets with when you flop bottom 2 pair. > Instead of calling you down he presses and presses and presses. Just calling his > 3-bet and turn bet doesn't take enough money out of him. Of course you have to know > he's maniacal like that as most players won't be so brazen without having flopped at > least a set. The way I see it, early in the hand, (pre-flop or even on the flop), the most costly error is playing (calling or raising) when you should be folding. In the middle of the hand (flop and turn), the most costly error now are ones of passivity: checking or calling when one should be betting or raising. Of course, playing instead of folding could also be significant errors here also. But in the end, by far the biggest error is folding when one should be calling. But checking instead of betting can also be significant errors. I frankly never see raising instead of just calling as ever being that big an error. Errors of aggression usually only costs one or two bets, whereas other errors can cost you the whole pot. And acts of aggression builds equity for future hands (a very under-appreciated concept) by generating action in the future when you have a monster, and more importantly in intimidating your opponents into acting more passively and controllably later. (These are issues that are not talked about enough in the poker literature, but are essential to long term results.) | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, Don Quixote, 26. Sep 2003 18:59 | ||
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| stdioh, this is some pretty profound stuff you guys are posting here, at least to a fishie like myself. You touched on one thing that often confuses me. When I have top pair/top kicker on the flop and someone comes out betting (even though I had raised preflop), I worry about them having two pair, but I sometimes raise anyway. If I am reraised, I know my tp/tk is beat and I go into calling mode if I stay at all. If I am up against someone even more clueless than me when I reraise, they seem to go into the call mode. In the limits I play (.50/1.) ring games and the $10 s&G, there are a lot of clueless opponents. I read somewhere to continue to push tp/tk til someone lets you know you are beat. With the turnover in the s&g tournies, I dont have many notes on other players because in 65 or 70 tournies, I havent met but 2 or 3 of them that I played against more than once or twice. Anyway, I have about given up O/L ring games in favor of the $10 s&g because I am doing so well in them (about 50% in the money) Thanks for your great posts and those of the other more experienced posters here. They are helping a great deal. Again, this is a great thread with good solid info. Don Quixote on 25. Sep 2003 10:31 stdioh wrote: > You're missing one whole class of errors and some of the most profitable > opponents...those who bet/raise when they should call or fold. When you're up against > a player whom you know will 3-bet top pair top kicker on the flop and on the turn > nomatter what, this is the guy that you go 4-bets with when you flop bottom 2 pair. > Instead of calling you down he presses and presses and presses. Just calling his > 3-bet and turn bet doesn't take enough money out of him. Of course you have to know > he's maniacal like that as most players won't be so brazen without having flopped at > least a set. | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, shorn, 25. Sep 2003 12:37 | ||
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| David Sklansky once did an article on 2+2 that walked through the most costly errors for Hold'em players to make. By far, he suggested that the errors to avoid more than any were the one's that could cost you the pot (checking instead of betting, calling instead of raising, and most importantly, folding instead of calling). All the others that cost you 1 or two bets are minimal in terms of mathematical expectation over long periods of time. It is the 12-15 bet errors that really swing you from a break even or winning player to a loser. | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, Phish, 25. Sep 2003 12:50 | ||
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| on 25. Sep 2003 12:37 shorn wrote: > David Sklansky once did an article on 2+2 that walked through the most costly errors > for Hold'em players to make. By far, he suggested that the errors to avoid more than > any were the one's that could cost you the pot (checking instead of betting, calling > instead of raising, and most importantly, folding instead of calling). > > All the others that cost you 1 or two bets are minimal in terms of mathematical > expectation over long periods of time. It is the 12-15 bet errors that really swing > you from a break even or winning player to a loser. I agree 100%. Yet for some reason, so many players think that being able to make a BIG laydown is the end-all and be-all of poker skills. And I hear so many people criticize others for making bad calls or bad raises, when the real big mistakes that are made are the bad folds or the bad checks or failures to raise. I guess that's why so many people are stuck playing 3/6. Unless they change their fundamental approach to the games, they will never play well enough to beat the, say, 75/150 game. Talking about how to play AJs before the flop just isn't really all that important. They need to re-read Theory of Poker, and internalize all the implications inherent in that book. Every time I read someone write "I should laid down my straight because I know he filled up even though the pot was giving me 37-1 return", I just think, 'Boy! is this guy clueness'. | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, shorn, 25. Sep 2003 12:56 | ||
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| I agree Phish. The laydown is an important part of Pot Limit or No Limit, but it is a very small skill in limit poker, regardless of what limit you play. There is NO worse feeling in poker than laying down the potential winner on the river because you wanted to save 1 or two bets. That one error costs you for so many other "1 bet errors" that you generally make while trying to play aggressively and win a pot. I guess a lot of players get some confidence thrill by saving that 1 bet a few times per year. But as you point out, most of the time it is stupid to fold on the end for 1 bet no matter how good you think your read is. | ||
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| Re: Errors Opponents Make!, stdioh, 25. Sep 2003 14:57 | ||
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| I think that the point Roy is making here is not how to avoid making errors - it is that you should determine the kinds of mistakes an opponent makes and do things conducive to him making that mistake repeatedly. For instance if there's an opponent who checkraises too much you should check behind him more often than you would normally so that his checkraise fails. If there is an opponent who folds his hand whenever somebody sneezes then you should sneeze a lot when you are bluffing. The point is in how to get more money not by doing good things, but by putting your opponents in a position to do bad things. | ||
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