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Server Time: 11/20/2008 3:19:47 AM PACIFIC |
 Intimidation is a killer..., Frankie Pals, 24. Sep 2003 20:54 | ||
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| I'm having a slight dilemma with getting intimidated by my opponent's raises (or reraises). I usually play $5-$10 hold 'em at the Taj in AC. I like the 5/10 tables, they seem to strike just the right balance between playing for real money and being able to have fun (in my situation, at least). Here are the details: it's a medium-aggressive table, and in an early position, I bet out holding J10 when the flop comes J-3-6 rainbow. A late position raises, and here is my dilemma. How legitimate is his raise, considering that I have top pair with medium kicker? Often enough, I will simply check-call the rest of the hand, and this is obviously not good. This happens to me with all types of hands, but the bottom line is that I get scared when somebody comes over the top at me. Any thoughts/strategies on how to deal with this? Thanks in advance... | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., Andrew Wells, 24. Sep 2003 21:25 | ||
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| This is exactly why you need a stronger hand than JT to enter the pot before the flop from early position. You probably should let this go on the flop when you are raised. Occasionally you can call the raise when a ragged board has a possible flush draw on the flop and bet the turn. JTo is one of those hands like KT, QJ, QT, Q9, and J9 that look halfway decent, but are often too hard to play well under any type of table conditions from early position. | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., Phish, 25. Sep 2003 08:03 | ||
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| on 24. Sep 2003 21:25 Andrew Wells wrote: > This is exactly why you need a stronger hand than JT to enter the pot before the flop > from early position. You probably should let this go on the flop when you are raised. > Occasionally you can call the raise when a ragged board has a possible flush draw on > the flop and bet the turn. JTo is one of those hands like KT, QJ, QT, Q9, and J9 that > look halfway decent, but are often too hard to play well under any type of table > conditions from early position. Starting with a better hand is nice, but I don't think that's what he's asking about. I've always been an advocate of the importance of intimidation. You want to be the intimidator. You want your opponent checking to you when he should be betting, and calling when he should be raising. The only way you can really accomplish this if you're not the naturally aggressive type is to take the more aggressive of the two options presented to you. In other words, next time that you're in a situation where you should call but maybe should raise, RAISE. After you do this for a little while, your opponents will learn to fear you and will be more controllable. Timid players get raised and bet into a lot more than aggressive players. And this costs the timid players a lot more than they realize in terms of pots lost that they would've otherwise won. In the hand described above, I would've three bet the flop, bet the turn, and maybe bet the river. After all, the worst that could happen this way is you'll lose an extra bet or bet and a half. But you could save a pot by not giving him a free card on the turn. Or make an extra bet if you do have him beat. Plus the long-term value of creating an intimidating image which cannot be overstated. There are many loose aggressive players who play too many hands and yet seem to do better than they should given the number of hands they play. And i believe much of their 'undeserved' success comes from intimidation of their opponents into making passive mistakes. (That, and they also win a lot of pots where nobody makes anything.) I'm not saying that these players are more profitable than the real tight/aggressive experts. But they are much tougher to play against (and have better results) than the weak-tight player whose only edge is playing better before the flop. | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., shorn, 25. Sep 2003 08:17 | ||
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| Phish- All good points and I agree to a point that selective aggressiveness is definitely a bonus. But I think that your strategy will really only work in limits 10/20 and above because IMO many LL players simply won't fold top pair (or middle pair for that matter). So, long run you will be costing yourself that extra 1.5 BB's a lot more often than stealing pots turning it into a -EV play. In a LL game, pre-flop hand selection is much more important than in the middle limits, not only because in general those who play low limits are not as good at getting away from hands when they are beaten, but simply because your competition is generally passive and they tend to call. So, value bets and raises when you have the goods are much more effective here, whereas in 10/20, those are less effective against tougher competition who will make those semi-bluff re-raises that you never see in LL. Don't get me wrong, occasionally you can run over a LL game if you find one with tighter players, so you have to be willing and able to switch gears when necessary. But by and large, straightforward tight aggressive play (like folding JT pre-flop and on the flop in this situation) will get the money the majority of the time. Steve | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., Mark, 25. Sep 2003 08:21 | ||
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| Phish I can usually get an intimidating image by playing tight aggressive. Even when i'm check-calling a hand down, i tend to have a strong one. Others do recognize this and respect my raises more (even at the lower limts (3-6,5-10). the loose aggressive play you are suggusting sounds alot like the play of opponents who are maniacs, or at least push really weak hands. These players can intimitdate a table full of passive players, but also can loose alot more than necessary. I've seen alot of loose aggressive players loose quickly when they run into calling stations. As for intimidating, I don't find loose agg play intimidating at all. Very passive players will, but most players, even beginers will adjust and play a little better/tighter against the L/P player. In fact, i don't even respect the L/P opponent's play and i turn into a calling station against him, taking away his edge and letting him bet weak hands into me. *I* do think that tight/agg is the most intimidating image *I* can project and this does have alot to do with the hands I play. Playing J10o from ep doesn't and shouldn't get any respect. If players can't respect you're play, they'll never be intimitdated by you. Mark | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., Phish, 25. Sep 2003 12:35 | ||
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| on 25. Sep 2003 08:21 Mark wrote: > Phish > > I can usually get an intimidating image by playing tight aggressive. Even when i'm > check-calling a hand down, i tend to have a strong one. Others do recognize this and respect > my raises more (even at the lower limts (3-6,5-10). > > the loose aggressive play you are suggusting sounds alot like the play of opponents who are > maniacs, or at least push really weak hands. These players can intimitdate a table full of > passive players, but also can loose alot more than necessary. > > I've seen alot of loose aggressive players loose quickly when they run into calling > stations. > > As for intimidating, I don't find loose agg play intimidating at all. Very passive players > will, but most players, even beginers will adjust and play a little better/tighter against the > L/P player. > > In fact, i don't even respect the L/P opponent's play and i turn into a calling station > against him, taking away his edge and letting him bet weak hands into me. > > *I* do think that tight/agg is the most intimidating image *I* can project and this does have > alot to do with the hands I play. Playing J10o from ep doesn't and shouldn't get any respect. > If players can't respect you're play, they'll never be intimitdated by you. > > Mark I certainly wasn't advocating a loose aggressive style. I think my post was a bit confusing because I mixed a couple of issues together. No, TIGHT and AGGRESSIVE is definitely the proper way to play. But the original poster found that he was being intimidated, which is absolutely not where you want to be. So I adviced him to play more aggressively in those marginal situations. In other words, instead of calling with top pair next time, try raising. But avoid raising in situations where you would've normally folded. And the power of an intimidating image cannot be overstated. And you're right that this may not be all that important if you're playing under 10/20. I almost never play below 50/100, so my views may not be entirely appropriate for the original poster. | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., Frankie Pals, 25. Sep 2003 13:35 | ||
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| Guys, Thanks for the advice, all good points. Phish, Andrew, thanks especially, you brought out some perspectives that I hadn't seen before. Maybe I shouldn't even be playing J10o, for some reason I'm just a fan of it. It's definitely worth a try to play it more aggressively, because, for all I know, that raise into me by the late position could very well be J9s, you know? That's the advantage of being in a late position, I guess. Haha. Thanks again... | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., Jordan, 25. Sep 2003 15:26 | ||
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| I don't think you should make a hard and fast rule to never play J-10o in early position. Obviously most of the time this isn't a good play, but I wouldn't say never. First of all, are you talking about 10 handed games? You can get away playing this hand in my opinion in a very passive loose table and get some huge draws to the nut straight (it makes every nut straight possible). If you aren't going to get raised I don't think it's a bad hand to play occasionally and I play it some in 6 handed 5-10 games. You do have to use your discretion when playing this and you flop top pair as you could be up against top pair better kicker, that's just something you have to realize playing it. It really has its' places. I'd base my decision to reraise somebody on the flop on their previous plays. Is it possible this is a very loose raiser who thinks you are bluffing and he raises with a top pair, crappy kicker or a draw? If that is the case you might want to reraise. If he is a solid player, you might want to fold. If you aren't sure i'd just call. Check to him on the turn and river and be prepared to call. Once you get a read on the player you can make better decisions from this point on. I had a situation yesterday playing A-10 from the small blind. I bet on the flop when an ace came and I got raised. I didn't have too much knowledge about this player but I checked/called the rest of the way and I got shown A7. It doesn't always work as nicely but you get the point. I always fear raises more on the turn than I do on the flop unless there have been 2-3 callers on the flop and then a raise......this person is protecting a strong hand. Anyways, that's just my take. | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., Andrew Wells, 25. Sep 2003 21:36 | ||
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| The turn is not the place to check and call top pair except against someone who has shown that they can and do bluff the whole way with anything. Betting the turn after calling the raise on the flop has several positives. First you aren't often going to be raised again on the turn unless you are beat, and can get away from the hand right there. You may have the best hand and be giving a free card if you don't bet. You make your opponent think twice about bluffing with a scare card on the river if you then check. You may be able to save a bet on the end if you check the river and were behind the whole way, by showing a bet on the turn. | ||
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| Re: Intimidation is a killer..., Andrew Wells, 25. Sep 2003 21:17 | ||
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| Those are all very reasonable suggestions. At 3-6 or 5-10 I don't like making the reraise on the flop without a good kicker when top pair is jacks or tens. A jack or a ten seems to fit many mediocre hands just a bit less often than an ace here. I tend to give players at these limits credit for making the raise with a flush draw far more often than two overcards, particularly if the player in late position didn't raise preflop. Someone who calls before the flop with AQ isn't going to be found raising a flop with two overcards enough to make three betting with top pair weak kicker work. In games where a flop raiser is probably going to stay to the river, and I think they are looking for a free card, I prefer to more often call and lead again on the turn. Much of the equity in taking the action to three bets holding just a pair is to force someone off a hand that can improve to beat you when you bet the turn. I think if you call the raise and lead on the turn, it's just as effective in terms of getting someone to muck. As long as you're not check/calling you are still playing aggressive. Three betting with JT here is hyperaggressive, and may be perceived as manaical by observant players. It may be difficult to get opponents fold when you would like them to later in the game if you show down hands like that. True you are probably going to get larger pots on your powerful hands as a result, but there are even more drawing hands that you would prefer not to get called. Overall, I think you can remain aggressive without immediately playing back at raises out of position, particularly at the lower limits. | ||
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