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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:13:48 AM PACIFIC |
 AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ... When do you play these?, Ostebovik, 24. Sep 2003 17:30 | ||
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| Suited or not. I have read here and elsewhere that these hands are marginal on a tight table but have until recently been enamored w/ their beauty if you know what I mean. However, lately (last 3 weeks or so) I have been only limping behind other callers when in LP, or raising on button/cutoff for steal with these hands. I fold in EP or MP to a raise unless the AT is suited. I watch the hands as they play out and about 70-80% of the time the cards would not have won and a number of times they would have cost me a great deal. My question is... am I playing too tight and giving up to much by folding these. As I practice it gets easier to fold these but sometimes, such as today when I had KQs and UTG +1 raised and it was called 2x before it got to me (tight table passive preflop/ more aggressive after w/ lots of blind stealing), I wonder if it was the right decision. I understand that situations and particular opponents at that time have a lot to do w/ what you can play. Suggestions? Advice? Feedback? | ||
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| Re: AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ... When do you play these?, nickdel, 24. Sep 2003 17:45 | ||
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| Being relatively new to the intricacies of the game, I have read my share of books and they all say that the hands you mention are not the best hands to play. Do I play them? Yes, in certain situations, I do, but I almost always raise when I come into a pot. There's rarely a time I will limp into the game unless I'm in the blind and my hand is truly dismal, or I just want to vary things a bit and throw people off. There have been times when I have raised every pot, every round for about a half hour and then folded 90% of my hands the next half hour, playing only the most premium of hands (but still raising). I like to keep people guessing, so if I come in with any one of these hands, I'm most likely raising. | ||
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| Re: AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ... When do you play these?, MozMan, 24. Sep 2003 17:57 | ||
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| Brunson calls most of these "Trouble" hands. They can be played, but must be played carefully and only when appropriate. They go up in value TREMENDOUSLY when short-handed, tho... -Moz "You can see your reflection in the luminescent dash." | ||
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| Re: AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ... When do you play these?, Mark, 24. Sep 2003 17:57 | ||
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| Hi These hands are usually overrated by begining and mediocre players. If the game is passive, i will play all of these hands (suited) from EP and may even raise with A10s and KQs, depending on how much control i have over the table. If it's raised in front of me, it also depends on the table, but i definately lean towards folding. I would only call a raise from ep if i had a very good reason, and even then i would only call with the ATs or KQs. I would tend to limp from MP with all these hands unless i had good reason to raise. And i would limp in from LP with all the hands. I think AT and KQ (suited or not) are much stronger than the other hands. Calling raises with AT and KQs in mp and lp can be +EV. If i was calling a raise, i would prefer to be in a later position, and have some callers in front. However, AT can be played heads up if the raiser will open with smaller pairs. I think KJ is severly overrated. I hate the hand and always fold to a serious raise unless in the BB. KJs is a bit better but still not great. QJ seems to me to be a good mp hand. I don't like it in ep, but am happy to see it in mp. I won't cold call 2 bets with it, but i don't mind calling an extra bet if it gets raised after i call. I find it to be an easy hand to get away from. KT can be a good hand if its not raised pre-flop. I will fold this hand to a raise unless in the BB. Lots of people will open with AT, if you have top pair of 10s, it is usually good. If you hit 2 pair, you will tend to have gutshot draws out against you (except for QJ) which isn't too bad since they won't hit too often. I think the problem with all these hands is that, when you are playing tight poker and not seeing any good hands for a while, these ones may look like gold, but they're not. Many impatient players will overplay these cause they can't stand to be out of the action for so long. They are decent hands, but at the bottom of the lists for limping in ep and mp and should be regularly folded to a serious raise (except ATs and KQs) Mark | ||
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| Re: AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ... When do you play these?, Frankie Pals, 24. Sep 2003 20:21 | ||
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| Mark makes a good point about these 'trouble' hands being overrated. More often than not, they get a player into some serious trouble. In this year's WSOP, in fact, Farha had KJ and was up against AK (I think it might have been Grey, not sure?) only to have the flop fall A-K-J!!! In Farha's mind, he had a monster, and rightly so. Luckily for him, however, he had much more chips than did Grey at the time. The lesson to be learned is that these marginal hands can get players into trouble, however there is no set rule on how to play them. As with any pair of cards, the circumstances and situation differ from day to day, table to table, hand to hand. Personally, I play most of these for one or two bets, depending on the table and position. If it fits into your style of play, if you can remained disciplined enough to not fall in love with your hole cards (as did Farha), then there is no reason that you shouldn't play these hands... | ||
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| Re: AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ... When do you play these?, INSINK, 24. Sep 2003 21:21 | ||
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| All of the aforementioned are marginal.....unless you are in late position, with few callers. You might be lucky to win 30% of the time with these hands.......KQs is the best of the lot......but can look ugly on the flop.......try playing pocket 8's or pocket 7's for better odds........7 to 1 says you hit trips if you hang on thru thru the ruver | ||
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| Re: AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ... When do you play these?, shorn, 25. Sep 2003 05:35 | ||
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| Most of these handsare garbage offsuit, especially in a normal game where you can see a pre-flop raise. uNsuited in EP, they all fly into the muck from me. Where they become playable is in late MP and LP when either 1 of two things has happened: everyone has floded to you and therefore you can attempt to steal, or at least 4 or 5 have called and you have decent enough implied odds to try and flop two pair or an up/down str8 draw. What you do NOT want to do is flop only 1 pair to these hands. This is where it becomes a money suck, because no matter which of the hands you have, you will be subject to kicker, overcard, or str8 trouble. If I flop top pair with one of these hands and there is any decent action (like a bet and 1 call), I will fold 80-90% of the time unless I have other outs. So, the key is to play these hands in spots where it is likely that you can control the betting (LP) and, lore importantly, to not get caught calling all the way down with 1 pair. If you can't outplay your opponents post-flop with these middle hands, just save your $$ and fold them all pre-flop. | ||
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| Re: AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ... When do you play these?, 4 POKER, 25. Sep 2003 09:30 | ||
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| Hey Gerard, Alot does depend on the game, and if the game is a full 10 handed game, or a short game, matters as well. In games that are relatively passive, and where players are making alot of post-flop mistakes, I think hands like K-Q suited and even A-10 suited can see the flop more liberally from the earlier positions. But everything has to be just right. Normally, I won't be entering a pot with these holdings from an EP because if the game has any aggresion to it at all, they can turn into real dogs alot of times, costing you bets preflop and then running into kicker problems post-flop when you do flop a pair. Not all the time, but when there's alot of players seeing the flop on average, you'll have to hit your hand even harder to continue. In the later positions (late MP and LP) with several limpers... I would call with some of them, but only for one small bet, OR, if say everyone folded, one player raised in a later position....then I might even re-raise with K-Q suited and A-10 suited, if I was going to play the hand at all. That's IF I was going to play it, and I felt that either, the raisor was a player that I could outplay post-flop, with having good position over him.... and/or, he wasn't so tight/solid that my raise (or call) would be a bad decision.....or, if I thought his raise was with a weaker holding as an attempt to drive the few players that are behind him, as a steal attempt. However, if I was on the button, and there were a couple of limpers, I may raise with K-Q suited, and A-10 suited. Your raise can knock out the blinds, and I think it would be advantageous to put in one more small bet by raising it.....taking the flop with fewer opponents, possibly....while being in the best position as well. But you'll also have to make sure that the blinds are not aggresive, and or 'maniacal' either. When you do chose to call with these holdings, if you're in MP or LP, being suited will add more strength to the hand, "and" knowing what type of players who are behind you should also be taken into consideration. There's nothing worse than limping in with a marginal holding from MP only to see it get raised and reraised by aggresive players to your left. That's why the texture of the table, and your position with these hands are so important. These are the holdings that I like to raise with myself as a means to try and knock out the button and/or the blinds with after everyone has folded; even if they are not suited. But.....they are the type of hands that you may need to fold if 'someone' else raises in front of you. Especially if the raise is coming from an UTG player or one from a MP who you have a decent amount of respect for. If you can play your hands really well post-flop, you can make more calls with these holdings for a ''minimal price'.... but all in all, they will become less profitable when played in the wrong positions and/or against a really tough field. 4P- | ||
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