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Server Time: 12/2/2008 10:26:08 AM PACIFIC |
 Out on another draw..., James Brooke, 24. Sep 2003 03:59 | ||
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| ... but was i right? SNG - Dealt QcJd in the BB of 100 (started with 1230 and UTG+1 has about 2500). 6-handed. UTG folds, UTG+1 raises it to 200 (he's not the best player i've ever seen to put it politely). I call. Flop comes: 2h Td 9d Two overcards, straight draw, backdoor flush and straight flush. I go all-in (1030). Called by Th 7h... T on the turn, Q on the river. I lose to trips. Now, this seems to be a recurring theme - i go out when 6-handed playing my draw aggressively and end up losing to a player that makes trips on the turn...mmm. My question, how else could this have been played? Did i play it badly... I think it was an acceptable play by me - it was 50/50 (in hindsight) after he called and i had the added chance of him folding to such a big overbet but would appreciate comments... | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., chasepoker, 24. Sep 2003 05:49 | ||
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| I think i might have either put in a small bet or checked as you have a good draw and would like to see 2 more cards as cheap as possible. Although you are 50-50 when you go all in it is another of those situations were this play would probably be correct in a cash game but in a tournament it is too risky as you are in effect having a coin flip when you dont yet need to. The only times i would do something like this is if 1) it was down the last 2 players or 2) if i knew i was playing someone much better than me and i wanted to gamble rather than slug it out. I again recommend you read Slansky's tournament book as he goes through this situation better than i ever will ( in his section on taking the lesser EV situation as it carries less risk ) But yeah in this situation i would have either a) bet about T200 if i thought that might get me the turn card for that price or b) checked and then folded to a bet by the other guy of T500 or more i would say it is too early to gamble in this situation especially as even doubling up here does not assure you any money. Of course i could be wrong ! Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., Pedro, 24. Sep 2003 06:50 | ||
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| I think you should of folded to an early raiser with jq offsuit. You are the first to act and almost all bad players are going to call the big blind bet. You said he wasn't that good of a player so if he had anything he was calling. When you go all in with a draw you are hoping that everyone folds. If they don't you are in trouble you should of realized the strength of your playes and that he might be bad enough to call with a 107. Before you play a hand in no limit poker ask yourself are you prepared to go all in with this hand. I think you were prepared but I think you should tighhten up especially when shortstacked. Yesterday I played a 10+1 multi tourney and I was shortstacked. I had aceQueen on the big blind with only 1 middle position caller. I decided to go all in. The blinds were 300 already and I had 1200 left. The guy happen to have AK. I stiull think it was the right move since he didn't raise and just called I thought he was trying to get into the pot for cheap. Also he had lots of money and was new to the table so I thought he just was trying to establish that he plays but i was wrong :). The flop came QJJ and he caught ten on turn. Oh well bad break. But I needed to make a move soon or else I wouldn't have money to make a move. | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., Stevolley2, 24. Sep 2003 06:11 | ||
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| Super System stresses that you don't make plays on bad players, you knew he was a bad player which he would call a large bet with a meager holding. You could not expect more that a 60% win rate with this hand. If you were playing a top tournament player I say your chance of winning goes up alot. Maybe even to 80%. When determing if someone could fold, remember to take into consideration if they have the knowledge to. How many times have you seen people call all-in with a flush draw? | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., Eman, 24. Sep 2003 06:34 | ||
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| You hand does not warrant an all-in. That was a terrible move, IMO. I would have checked or bet small. Youre on a draw, and you need to see the cards with little expense. | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., chasepoker, 24. Sep 2003 06:55 | ||
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| Odds wise though it wasnt a bad call as it must be nearly 50-50 but tournament wise it maybe wasnt so great ! on 24. Sep 2003 06:34 Eman wrote: > You hand does not warrant an all-in. That was a terrible move, IMO. I would have > checked or bet small. Youre on a draw, and you need to see the cards with little > expense. Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., Eman, 24. Sep 2003 06:57 | ||
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| I agree, but I dont want to risk my tourney on a 50 / 50 draw. | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., Pedro, 24. Sep 2003 07:04 | ||
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| Sorry the 200 dollar bet is out of the question if he is playing he is playing all in, his stack can't take another 200 dollar hit. Hes either all in or folding. He should of folded. | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., chasepoker, 24. Sep 2003 07:43 | ||
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| Why can his stack not take another 200 hit ? He will still be left with T850 and the blinds are only 50/100 if by betting 200 he got to see the turn for 200 then i would do it every time ! This is not to say it is the correct move but some players will just call the 200 and try to get their money all in on the turn where they only have one more card to look at. But i believe the idea that he cannot take a T200 hit as being incorrect. Cheers CP on 24. Sep 2003 07:04 Pedro wrote: > Sorry the 200 dollar bet is out of the question if he is playing he is playing all in, his stack > can't take another > 200 dollar hit. Hes either all in or folding. He should of folded. Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., Pedro, 24. Sep 2003 07:49 | ||
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| I disagree you put yourself at 850 you are already put about half your money in the pot on a draw? He shouldn't of been in the hand in the first place. He also now has small blind coming up that will put him at 800 and now his stack is rather small. Now he goes a whole round and if he doesn't catch a hand the 100 200 will eat him up. He went from being able to make a good double up to now praying for a miracle hand. When your shortstacked you got to haveenough money so that if you win an all in hand your back in it. I don't think 800 is enough to last with the next round of betting coming. | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., TrippH, 24. Sep 2003 08:27 | ||
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| no need to go all-in here ... I agree with chasepoker's second suggestion of checking and calling any small bet from the other player ... you may as well gamble here if any K,Q,J, or 8 falls, which is about a coin flip to happen by the river, but try to stay in the hand as cheap as possible until you see it or don't see it ... if it does hit, you'll still probably be able to squeeze some money out of your opponent, as most of the cards you need would be likely to look good to a pre-flop raiser, and if not, the money already in the pot will buy you a couple more rounds of blinds at least | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., James Brooke, 24. Sep 2003 08:42 | ||
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| I should point out that my only concern in playing these is to win them - i'm not bothered about making the money or not. As you've suggested, Chasepoker, i have TPFAP and understand that i 'lose' equity as a result and end up just out of the money more than i should do as a result. But then i win more, which is my goal. Bearing this in mind, i think my play is correct. I also think any +ve EV play, which doesn't bare a terrible risk of ruin, is worthwhile - again, given my goal. Comments please | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., TrippH, 24. Sep 2003 09:10 | ||
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| A) If you're so convinced your play was correct, why bother posting it for comments and asking if you "played it badly"? B) How is going all-in with only a draw not "a terrible risk of ruin" (not that finishing out of the money will ruin you financially, of course, but losing all your chips certainly ruins your tournament)? | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., James Brooke, 24. Sep 2003 09:30 | ||
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| I'm not convinced of anything - i said i think it was correct and was just asking people's opinion of whether it was given the different aims i have - interesting to see if just coming first as your aim can change the play into a correct one from an incorrect one. I'm sorry it annoyed you so much - i have to say i find it a pity that you can't get the excellent advice that some people are willing to give without the other stuff like your post... You do however bring up an interesting point about what is an acceptable risk of ruin - i figured he would fold at least 40% of the time and of the other 60 i would win 50%. Hence about a 30% risk - wouldn't you go all-in with AK if you put your opponent on AQ? Same risk, isn't it? | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., TrippH, 24. Sep 2003 10:10 | ||
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| I was unaware that I was annoyed. But anyway, the AK vs. AQ is more like 75-25 unless the AQ is suited in which case it's closer to 70-30, not a huge difference maybe in a tournament all-in situation, but at least one worth considering. Sort of a moot point though because how confidently can you really put an opponent specifically on AQ pre-flop as opposed to any other similar hand he may play the same way (AK, KQ, QQ, JJ, etc.)? That being said, without knowing why you call your opponent a bad player, it's hard to know why you put the odds of him folding at 40% and the odds of winning a showdown at 50% (after knowing he has Th7h, yeah, he's only a 51-49 favorite, but there's no way you can confidently put him on this particular hand with only his pre-flop raise to go on). I guess the question is, has he been raising pre-flop frequently with garbage? Has he been folding strong hands to big raises on the flop? Has he been chasing draws to the turn and river in the face of big bets? All of these factor into the percentages you give here. Actually I think he made a bad play by calling the all-in with only a pair of 10's and 7 kicker. I'm not sure I could have called that raise if it came from a reasonably tight player. But I wouldn't have raised all-in in your position either. I'd just rather check and see how he plays the flop before I commit to the hand. After all, if he's a bad player, why wouldn't you want to give him as many opportunities to make a mistake as you can, rather than limit him to only having to make one decision which could very possibly be an easy one (folding with 6c5c or calling with pocket 10's). | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., poker_dog, 24. Sep 2003 10:14 | ||
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| All good points... Thank you | ||
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| Re: Out on another draw..., Schuster, 24. Sep 2003 13:01 | ||
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| I play along the same lines when it is getting close to bubble time in a big tournament, but in a sit and go, the money is not drastically different from first to the bubble. Whereas winning 1 big tournament might be the same as getting just past the bubble 100 times, winning 1 sit and go is only worth 2.5 lowest money finishes. Lee | ||
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